12-03-2003 00:17									#1
	Turn 71, 1250BC Remove this text

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Researching Republic at 100%.
- 289 gold cash, +1 gpt (thanks to our 5gpt from ND).

Urgent questions:
- What will we offer GoW for Legoland contact?

Military:

Economy:
- Reconfigure EotS and Hurricane laborers so EotS works its three flood plains, an irrigated fur, and a 2-food/1-shield tile, and Hurricane works three irrigated furs and a 2-food/1-shield tile. (I just noticed that this will alternate EotS producing four and six shields, eliminating the need to chop the fur forest if we don't want to. Note that in Republic, two FPs and the fur forest would balance to create the right food surplus for two-turn workers, and Hurricane could have all the irrigated furs then.)
- New worker from EotS moves to the fur forest to prepare for a chop.
- Worker on the flood plains by Tempest finished road; moves 8-9.
- Worker by Bolderberg finished road; moves 3-6.
- Worker 8-9 from Tornado finished road. Moves 8-9.
- Bolderberg finishes spearman. Starts War Chariot.
- Worker north of Tempest starts road. (We don't need the mine yet, and extra mobility might conceivably come in handy.)

Diplomacy:

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers

Last edited by nbarclay on 13-03-2003 at 13:58

	12-03-2003 00:30									#2
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One question: isn't it possible to get typhoon onto a library, instead of a temple? I know I asked this before, but don't remember if an answer was given... I can fully understand if a temple would give a better timing, but in this game, temples seem such a waste unless we need to build cathedrals...

DeepO

	12-03-2003 00:32									#3
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Well, we build it mostly for the culture, not happiness effect, and a temple is just cheaper. At the moment, both wouldn't give much effect.

	12-03-2003 00:38									#4
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That was exactly my point... 2 culture for 60 shields is worse then 3 culture for 80 shields... Neither of them will do much good, but a library might be better in the long run.

DeepO

	12-03-2003 00:49									#5
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Madrid is still stuck on 5 (not growing).

-
Is ND building up again? (powergraph)
If we might need to hurry up, if we want to get some kind of compensation from GoW.

	12-03-2003 00:54									#6
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Well we do get 2 culture for 30 shields. In cases where we just want to expand the borders, Temples will work much better. Most of these cases are on the fringes, so Libraries won't have that much affect until things like Courthouses and Aquaducts have been built.

I agree that long term advantages of Libraries are more than Temples, but if a Temple opens up some tiles we need to use 10-15 turns earlier, it can swing things in favor of cheap culture.

In Typhoon's case specifically, a Library throws off timing quite a bit from my scenario. We would basically be cutting out ~3 Galleys from our fleet by the time we'd want to make a crossing, cutting our landing force in half. We could leave out the Harbor and make reg Galleys (may want to do this anyways). A Harbor there isn't important from a food standpoint, as Typhoon gets stuck on size 6 for quite a while with food excess.

An option would be to pop rush the Library in conjunction with a forest chop or two. It would need 10 more turns than the Temple, but very well could pay off if we get back to size 6 by the time our GA hits. I think the worker turns are available as I was keeping ahead on the improvements in the S. I'll look into this. We certainly won't need the Temple's happiness effect, and it could mean +5-7 beakers a turn in our GA.

	12-03-2003 00:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO That was exactly my point... 2 culture for 60 shields is worse then 3 culture for 80 shields... Neither of them will do much good, but a library might be better in the long run.

Since we're religious, don't we get a 50% discount on temples and cathedrals? (no teasing intended)
In that case, temples turn out to be more cost-effective than libraries, culture-wise. Therefore, I'd go with a temple first, so we could join the culture race; a library would take much longer and is less cost-effective culture-wise, and its scientific benefits won't begin to make a real difference until later on.

Edit: x-posted with Aeson.

	12-03-2003 01:13									#8
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D'oh... I need to pay more attention... this has been a busy day already, but that's no excuse to make two mistakes in a row (the expansionist comment to huts, and us being religious). Sorry guys, I totally forgot we were Egyptian

Temple it is, then

alva: I think that's the 10th turn Madrid is not growing (if I counted right, which, given the rest of the comments the past hour is not very likely), maybe I should ask Ninot about it... I never came around to it.

ND: that last bump is more then 1 city, so either a city plus some units, or 2 cities, or a large cash deposit from somewhere. I've been paying attention to the teams upgrading, and I can's say for sure, but it seems that if gold gets used to upgrade troops, there is little to be seen in the power graph. Gold deminishes power, while better units increase it again. So it's not a simple upgrade.

DeepO

	12-03-2003 01:30									#9
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Don't totally abandon the idea of a Library just yet... It is a good idea if we can fit it in.

Thankfully we have several turns before a decision has to be made.

	12-03-2003 01:39									#10
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this reminds me of something: forests. In my SP games, I try to clear all forest asap, especially if I have enough workers, and can fit them in without wasting shields. I know many players think they are best kept until aquaducts and marketplaces, but how exactly are we treating them here? I'd rather have both forests near Typhoon put into some culture, if possible, or at least one for a temple... the only exception being that we might need them in a GA to get to a nice round number of shields in the city. The sooner shields are given to cities, the better I would say, and certainly if this means that we get some more culture or commerce. Any POVs on this?

BTW, players, how is our culture doing? are we still over half of the culture of the team with best culture?

DeepO

	12-03-2003 02:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO BTW, players, how is our culture doing? are we still over half of the culture of the team with best culture?

Agreed. Let's see some culture graphs.
Btw, do we also check the wonders screen every turn? I know that teams can still mask their wonder prebuilds using palace builds, but still...

	12-03-2003 02:25									#12
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In my testing, the chop on the Furs near Typhoon always went to Typhoon. We only gain by chopping that tile as soon as possible. If it leads to a quicker border expansion, all the better, as then we can use it and the Whale. As any chop puts us 10 shields ahead in the build queue, now or later doesn't really factor into things. We should do the chops as soon as the Worker turns are available for it. Timing things to not waste shields of course!

In my scenario all the Grassland come out unshielded (Jungle or Forest), so we may have more shields S than I am counting on.

	12-03-2003 02:28									#13
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Aeson, did you hear of the trick discovered here that wonders guide chops? If you want, you can have the chop go to Cyclone by temporarily switching to a wonder (or palace) in Typhoon the moment the chop is completed. Not that it would help in this case, but it might help in others...

DeepO

	12-03-2003 02:45									#14
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Good idea DeepO. We could switch the W city to a wonder just to make sure (will give some of the other teams something to talk about for a turn). I think we definitely want all 3 chops going to Typhoon.

	12-03-2003 05:23									#15
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I'm not convinced we want to chop the forests until we're ready to use the chops to help finish aqueducts. Right now we have a major food surplus thanks to all the wheat down south, and forests provide a surefire way to turn food into shields when we hit size six. If we chop, only shielded grasslands (once mined) can keep up the same number of shields. Once aqueducts are in place, a faster growth rate would be worth sacrificing shields for, and we could even replant forests once the cities are size 12 if that seems profitable. But until aqueducts let us go past size six, I suspect that the forests are worth more left intact.

	12-03-2003 17:17									#16
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Nathan, I'm not sure on this. The whole question becomes when you start on your aquaduct: if you use forest in scenario A to rush a temple, you can start your aquaduct sooner. It will be exactly the same as when in scenario B you let the temple build later, but rush the aquaduct, the eta for both improvements will be the same. The only difference is that your temple would be sooner ready in scenario A, at the expense of workerturns.

Of course, subjectively there is a difference, as rushing a temple first will make you think you have time to cramm in a spear or something, and only after that start on the aquaduct. In this third case, you will be later with both improvements, but only because you build something else in between.

DeepO

	12-03-2003 18:45									#17
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You're missing the point. Forests generate two shields. Mined regular grasslands generate only one. So when you're at size six with plenty of food to go around, each turn early you chop can result in a lost shield from having to work a lower-production tile.

Typhoon is something of a special case because its best tile - the southern fur forest - requires a temple before we can get to it. Using a chop or two to get that temple sooner could therefore potentially pay for itself. But in the absence of such a benefit, chopping only makes sense if you're prepared to exploit the food advantage it provides sometime in the near future.

Nathan

	13-03-2003 00:44									#18
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The Forest 8 from Tornado we definitely need to keep. Same with the Forest 33 from Bolderberg. Otherwise they aren't guaranteed to be able to have them at 15 shields per turn during our GA.

I checked Typhoon, and we are in a Republic too soon to pop rush the Library, so that's out.

The chops are a very complex issue. Nothing says we have to sit at size 6, we may very well want to pop out a Settler or Worker whenever we hit the limit in some cities. In others, the added shield may or may not help due to corruption rates, and this can change between regular production and GA production. Then there is the roughly 50% chance that a chop will uncover a Shielded Grassland.

For right now, all I could say is we should chop the fur forest, and that we shouldn't chop Tornado's and Bolderberg's Forests. Also the 2 Forests N of Tempest are best to leave if we are building a city in the Spinebreaker 'pass'.

	13-03-2003 03:42									#19
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Nathan, I'm aware of that. Notice that in my first post on forest I already said that at times of a GA, we should have some around to balance out. I don't agree on the size 6 cities, though, in all games in which I'm doing good, I don't sit at size 6 when I can build aquaducts. We could time it so that it won't be needed, by starting early enough, and building workers / settlers (or perhaps even a pop rush) before that. There are always things that can go wrong, but if I understand what you and Aseon are trying to accomplish here, we should be able to more or plan the next 20 turns or so for peaceful growth, even foreseeing a minimum of (military) problems.

DeepO

	13-03-2003 06:48									#20
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Aeson, are you taking into account the fact that the fur forest is the one forest we're absolutely, positively guaranteed won't give us as many shields chopped as unchopped once we're under Republic? Except in scenarios built in the editor, grasslands with shield don't appear under forests or junlges with resources.

DeepO, cities can't build settlers or workers and aqueducts at the same time, and if they drop down in size to any significnat degree before they start their aqueducts, they lose production for building the aqueducts (in addition to the production needed to build the settlers or workers to begin with). I'm skeptical as to how much sense that makes, especially when our only real need for settlers or workers will be to add them to cities later. Of course if cities are already at size 6 with a good food surplus, building a worker to drop back to size 5 might make a lot of sense.

	13-03-2003 08:47									#21
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No I'm not... thanks for pointing that out. (I'm a confirmed Despot )

	13-03-2003 11:39									#22
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Regarding worker moves, where is the new Worker from EotS going?

To me, the next most important city site is going to be 89 from Tempest. We can have the road in place by the time our Settler from Cyclone or EotS is ready, but Irrigating at least 1 FP by that time would also be worthwhile. To that end, the Worker 62 from Tempest should cross the river 89, and Road/Irrigate that tile and the one 8. The EotS Worker can improve the Plains tile.

------------

The EotS 4 turn Settler requires the fur chop right? We are at a point right now where we are ahead on Workers, and it would be a good time to go for it. We need 1 more Worker from EotS then the Settler? Hurricane has enough tiles improved for the next 14 turns, so the move 89 at this point doesn't help us much anyways. It would be a good time for the chop. If I remember the sequence correctly, we need to idle a turn before starting the chop though.

Last edited by Aeson on 13-03-2003 at 11:47

	13-03-2003 11:41									#23
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I opened up the save, not sure we're ready to play it but wanting to see what the first in-game diplomatic offer (if any) from another civ would be so I can go ahead and post about it. My impression was that GoW was setting up an exclusive on sale of contact with Lego, but ND is making an in-game offer to see what we're willing to give them.

By the way, they don't have Philosophy yet. We might want to check with Vox about how negotiations in that regard are coming.

I'll leave things on hold for the moment before trying to play the rest of the turn so we'll have some time to think about the situation.

Nathan

	13-03-2003 11:46									#24
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Well, if ND offers it to us, not we but ND violates the rule. Nobody can blame us if we take it.

	13-03-2003 11:52									#25
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They haven't contacted us about it? I don't see any purpose for buying it from ND now that we are likely to get it for free from GoW.

The possibility that Lego made contact with ND also exists. They wouldn't have had to travel far down the coast to see them (2 turns should cover it). If this is the case, their contact now should be almost worthless, and we could ask for more in regards to compensation from GoW.

	13-03-2003 11:53									#26
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Aeson, thanks for the catch on that worker. I'll rework the orders to use the new worker for something I'd planned to use Tempest's first worker for and have Tempest's first worker (on the flood plains) start roading farther north.

I don't think we've really made a final decision between your city placement plan and DeepO's (with the border treaty adjustments) yet, and that's something we need to do in a hurry so we can build our road network accordingly. Your plan is definitely nice from a defense perspective, but I haven't seen or gotten around to doing enough economic analysis to be sure its economics are as good. In any case, getting roads up north along the flood plains is a useful move either way.

Nathan

	13-03-2003 11:58									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If this is the case, their contact now should be almost worthless, and we could ask for more in regards to compensation from GoW.

My inclination is in the opposite direction. If GoW doesn't have anything exclusive to sell, either contact (which ND has) or Philosophy (which we and Vox have), how much could they give us before they would be better off renegotiating the deal with Lego to exclude Code of Laws? And if that happens, Lego could buy Code of Laws from ND or from RP (once they get contact if they haven't already traded for it), which would leave us out entirely.

	13-03-2003 11:59									#28
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The other worker option is to send EotS' new Worker to the Fur Forest to chop, it gets there in time without the road. Then the Worker just finishing up Tornado's mine can either road the Forest 2, or go improve some future tiles for Hurricane.

The loss (assuming we still go build up the FP's now) is that the Plains by Tempest have to wait to be improved, but they aren't all that necessary for a while themselves (I didn't use them until Tempest hit size 12).

	13-03-2003 12:08									#29
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I already have orders for the worker working on Tornado's northeastern mine tile to go back and start working on Hurricane tiles again.

I'm starting to wonder if we really want to chop the fur forest by EotS after all. By the time we'd get a chop and a mine done, we'd be within ten turns of Republic, and once we're in Republic, working two flood plains, the fur forest, and the rest two-food tiles would give us the five surplus food we want. Also, the fur forest gives us two shields from laborers the turn (or fraction of a turn) they first appear, and we'd lose that for a couple turns - just long enough to be annoying - between the time we chop and the time we get a mine in place. So is the chop really worthwhile in light of those facts? I'm interested in hearing opinions.

[Edit: I originally said Tempest when I meant Tornado in the first paragrpah.]

	13-03-2003 12:09									#30
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I know the city placement hasn't been finalized... but the improved FP's help regardless of how we go on that front.

As for economical evaluation of the site (I'm campaigning here ), having the free Aquaduct, Size 10, 15 shield per turn city in our GA makes sense regardless of defensive position.