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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Spencer seems Healeyesque – a real talent but very inconsistent with it. |
He's been more consistent lately. Have you got to see a couple of super 12 games?
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Bearcat
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Oregonia
Dec 1999
time: 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
I tend to think they rely on their wingers a fair bit too. The only game they lost was when they were without one of them. Still, if they continue to fire on all cylinders I expect them to go all the way. |
Don't forget though, that they dropped that one to the Highlanders in Dunedin. The Highlanders are a tough team to beat at home.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:26
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The Havak Jolly Boys? Sounds like a pub fiddle band! |
Pub – certainly. Band – perhaps. Fiddle – no thanks. 
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So we can expect to see you and Mrs Havak there in about 15 years? |
I’m hardly qualified under the criteria for the block now am I? And lets have no more of this encouraging the Mrs to attend rugby – it’s my last bastion of male freedom. 
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Who's coming up next season? |
Rotherham (of Yorkshire). Again. But more on promotion/relegation later.
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Surely they would sell out the Paris stadium for this match. |
I’m not so sure – that is almost closer to Welford Road than it is to Stade Toulousain.
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They just need him really firing to play at their best. He drives them. |
He certainly seems to be at a higher standard than he was in November. That’s the problem with skewed seasons I guess – it really is time you heretics played Aug-May as is right and proper.
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Obviously the rep players have their incomes, but the non-rep players don't. |
Initially here the whole system tried to go Pro. That has now settled into a more realistic Pro top two divisions (though some National Division One is more semi-pro), semi-pro through the National Divisions (two more flights) then Amateur below that (hundreds of leagues!).
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This is the guy with the discipline problem? |
That’s him. No solid facts are being issued but both sides have said they didn’t want to part. Usual PR stuff.
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Dig the boots out of the bottom of your broom cupboard, for crying out loud! |
If they only had fourteen fit players in the squad things still wouldn’t be that desperate for them. 
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Damn straight. They let us do all the running and smashing and than when we don't win them the ball, just the way they want it, we hear about it |
Next time they get scragged just make sure they know who was first there to protect their ass. If that doesn’t make them appreciate you more arrive a fraction of a second later the next time – they’ll soon come round.
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I will certainly learn more about it in the future editions of the Midi Olympique. |
If you do find out could you let me know please? Discipline issues aside I rather liked the guy and am sad to see him go.
The Califano type thing has gone on is rugby for as long as I can remember. Even whilst playing squad members can be employed as Associates to large sponsors. It’s all Cap avoidance. I guess we ought to bring France into line with caps though – after all the home nations except England are all bankrupt (seriously), we have a salary cap and therefore a free spending France might dominate the European cup for years to come – and nobody wants that right? 
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A graduate from the Havak College of Onfield Diplomacy! |
See the above advice.
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He's been more consistent lately. Have you got to see a couple of super 12 games? |
I’ve seen extended highlights of several as Sky repeats them at midnight on a Saturday (domestically difficult at times) – having caught most of the Kiwis at some point. I’ve only seen one Aussie team though – the Reds and they seem to be being pasted right left and centre?
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It was the Fitzpatrick-type attitude that was missing when the ABs disappeared into the wilderness for a couple of years. |
The forwards still aren’t quite back to Fitzy-Feisty levels. McCaw, Robertson (he's the number 8 right?) and Jack certainly looks to have that same aggressive buzz but the front row isn’t there yet for me.
Okay – back to relegation. It was announced yesterday that Bath and Bristol are in merger talks. This is interesting for several reasons. For a start they are occupying two of the bottom three slots and are therefore both relegation threatened. Both are in financial trouble, Bristol seriously so. Both believe a merger would mean no relegation.
I am against this on so many levels – for a start it’s an AFL Swans type fan-screw. Believe me fans of these clubs are not hugely fond of each other – both clubs are over a hundred years old, are local rivals and have huge proud traditional fan bases. Putting them together is like making Tigers merge with Saints (there would be blood on the carpets there I can assure you). It’s the kind of thing that only makes sense to money men. It happened a few years ago when the RFU helped London Irish absorb London Scottish and Richmond to reduce the top flight to 12 clubs. Both those sides now exist only as totally amateur sides well down the leagues and London Irish make no reference to their names.
If Bristol are in financial trouble then let them revert to Amateur and drop down the leagues naturally but keep the old club alive. No one stepped in to help West Hartlepool when this happened to them and they got relegated four times in four season – but they still exist. To effectively lose either Bath or Bristol is abhorrent to me – and also why should either club stay up by merging when the second club in the second flight (Worcester) and playing good rugby and are financially viable?
The money men influence Rugger too much these days. 
Hmm – better have a sit down for my blood pressure to come down.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:26
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quote:
when your referees and sponsors are killing the scrums and mauls for the sake of a so called more spectacular game? |
Okay – you are definitely a forward whatever you might say. When you get that ball and run with it ‘tenacious’ hardly covers it.
It is noticeable in the S-12 games I’ve seen that continuity is still king and that does make it a little too League like for my tastes but we are never going to convert Finbar or Cal on this one.
Our best bet is that either the Wallabies or the ABs suddenly find they have an awesome pack that is great at set piece ball – they will then make damn sure the laws that support those strengths start getting applied again. The ABs are heading that way at least. Can you imagine any of Fitz’s teams needing the continuity interpretations? They were always capable of getting in and competing for the ball.
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I can't agree more, leave the women at their right places, house, kitchen and laundry. |
Your words, not mine (I wouldn’t dare!).
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I will let you know. |
 Thanks.
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Yes and because the budget of your clubs are far too high, especially when we consider the salaries of the players... |
Huh? This one you have lost me with. We ARE the ones with a salary cap. Do you mean the international salaries – they are high I would agree.
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Beating the pants off some Rosbiffs...
Of course, Havak, nobody wants that! |
Of course for myself a repeat Grand Slam next year is something I would quite like.
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Money spoils everything my old friend, everything! |
Too true. I just wish we could be more pragmatic like NZ are – throw together super teams for the S12 when needed but then when the real rugby starts the traditional clubs come back into force. I dislike Bath considerably but I wouldn’t want to see them, Glaws and Bristol forced into some kind of ‘West Country Warriors’ franchise nonsense.
Were there ever an East Midlands franchise it would have to be called East Midlands Felines – or shortened to ‘Leicester Tigers’ might be better.
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No, no, let the pressure come up! |
It’s boiling nicely actually. I’ve just seen the new season replica shirt Tigers are launching and they have put the prices up £5 a throw (to £45). So little success on the field means screwing over the fans to maintain finances does it? I feel a letter to the chief exec coming on. Anyone know a writer?
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:26
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I couldn't post earlier because of harware problems. So, belatedly, congratulations to Tamerlin for Toulouse's win. I hope the Stade will beat the U.S.A.P. in Dublin. "Allez les rouges, allez les noirs, allez les rouges et noirs!" (why they are now playing anything but black and red is beyond me - I loved those jerseys they had 10 years ago...).
About continuity of the game, I agree with Havak that this is not necessarily a good thing. In the last match I did (Friday last week), the opponent forwards were bigger than we were (not that it's very difficult to find a hooker bigger than I). Still, they were not good at keeping the ball and we (particularly a young flanker and yours truly) took a lot of balls they had not protected correctly. This resulted in 2 tries for us. We scored one more on a 89 with a nice "crochet" of our winger, and one thanks to the aforementioned flanker (I congratulated my prop who had managed to be the first on the breakdown on that action, my being second - an extraordinary feat for the front row while the other back rowers were supposed to come in first). The opponents scored one on a lineout + maul.
So half of the tries (of ours anyway) came from harsh fighting for the ball (my left eye is still a tesimony of that harsh fighting). And still we felt frustrated because we couldn't fight for the ball enough.
Rugby must keep its combat phases, else it will die as the sport we know. I always loved Blanco's runs with the ball, but he couldn't ever have run that way if his pack hadn't fought for the ball first.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
You know it would not be inside!
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Okay. I'll take pity on you. About 30 years ago, a beverage called Claytons came on the market in Australia. It was - and still is - a non-alcoholic cola drink, but not a fizzy cola like Coke or Pepsi. It had quite a sharp taste. It was marketed as "The Drink You Have When You're Not Having A Drink", with "drink" a euphemism for an alcoholic drink.
(At this point, Havak has closed his eyes and blocked his ears)
Anyway, Australians, as they are wont to do, quickly latched onto the slogan and applied it to any situation in which what was being touted wasn't the real thing. For example, if a decision had been reached which was, in fact, a compromise rather than a decision, it was called "a Claytons decision".
Thus, French rugby, which has a salary cap which isn't really a salary cap because it has no ceiling figure, has "a Claytons salary cap".
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
And lets have no more of this encouraging the Mrs to attend rugby ? it?s my last bastion of male freedom. |
Any trouble I can cause I'm perfectly happy to!
quote:
Next time they get scragged just make sure they know who was first there to protect their ass. If that doesn?t make them appreciate you more arrive a fraction of a second later the next time ? they?ll soon come round. |
And if they still don't appreciate you after having followed Havak's advice, drop a knee into one of their kidneys at the next breakdown. When they look around for the culprit, point at the nearest oppo player. Okay, it won't make them appreciate you, but whomever it is will end up in hospital and his replacement in the team might appreciate you. If not, keep up the process until you get one that does appreciate you. If you end up with a hospital full of backs, none of whom appreciate you, and no more replacements, at least you've had the satisfaction of showing them they're as weak as p*ss. Whereupon you retire, get a job in IT, and call yourself Havak.
quote:
I?ve only seen one Aussie team though ? the Reds and they seem to be being pasted right left and centre? |
Except against the Waratahs, where they played a top game. And if you'd seen the Waratahs playing at their best and worst, you'd be forgiven for thinking either there were two different teams or they were being paid to lie down.
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The forwards still aren?t quite back to Fitzy-Feisty levels. McCaw, Robertson (he's the number 8 right?) and Jack certainly looks to have that same aggressive buzz but the front row isn?t there yet for me. |
No, the ABs, as an outfit, have never regained the extraordinary - and exciting - steamrolling arrogance of the Fitzpatrick-Zinzan Brook days. And they might never regain it. It was a matter of personalities.
quote:
Okay ? back to relegation. It was announced yesterday that Bath and Bristol are in merger talks. This is interesting for several reasons. For a start they are occupying two of the bottom three slots and are therefore both relegation threatened. Both are in financial trouble, Bristol seriously so. Both believe a merger would mean no relegation.
I am against this on so many levels ? for a start it?s an AFL Swans type fan-screw. Believe me fans of these clubs are not hugely fond of each other ? both clubs are over a hundred years old, are local rivals and have huge proud traditional fan bases. Putting them together is like making Tigers merge with Saints (there would be blood on the carpets there I can assure you). It?s the kind of thing that only makes sense to money men. It happened a few years ago when the RFU helped London Irish absorb London Scottish and Richmond to reduce the top flight to 12 clubs. Both those sides now exist only as totally amateur sides well down the leagues and London Irish make no reference to their names.
If Bristol are in financial trouble then let them revert to Amateur and drop down the leagues naturally but keep the old club alive. No one stepped in to help West Hartlepool when this happened to them and they got relegated four times in four season ? but they still exist. To effectively lose either Bath or Bristol is abhorrent to me ? and also why should either club stay up by merging when the second club in the second flight (Worcester) and playing good rugby and are financially viable?
The money men influence Rugger too much these days. |
Your last line sums it up. As you say, it's pretty much what happened with the Sydney Swans. In their case, it was relocate or die. All thanks to "professionalism". I can't tell you how much I hate it. The saddest thing is that it's a journey from which there's no turning back. Once these decisions are made, once these clubs are merged or disbanded, once the damage is done, there's no undoing it. And perhaps what sh*ts me most of all is the complete and utter disregard for things like the relationship between the town or suburb and its club - the social fabric. It gets shredded because, while it's one of society's greatest assets, it doesn't crack a mention under Assets in the balance sheet. Bastards!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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Last night there was an Australian Rules match way out of the ordinary - a bizarre combination of the usual highly competitive instincts and some of the most basic, ugly, but understandable, human passions.
It all sprang from a highly publicised incident early last year. And, rather than name a lot of names with which you're not familiar, I'll translate the scenario to, for easy reference, Havak's Tigers.
This, in Tiger terms, was the cast in last year's scenario:
JONNO
JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN
JONNO'S OTHER BEST MATE, TEAM VETERAN, AND TEAM IRON MAN
The JONNO parallel with the AFL player involved is perfect. The AFL player was a club champion, club legend, had led them to premierships, et al. He was God to the club supporters. He was the JONNO of the AFL.
It's also impossible to overstate the level of the combined friendship. They were very very close.
And this is what happened:
There was a BBQ at the home of JONNO'S OTHER BEST MATE, TEAM VETERAN, AND TEAM IRON MAN including some but not all of the players. The WIFE of JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN was seen to go into the bathroom. Shortly afterwards, JONNO was also seen to go into the bathroom. Several minutes later, JONNO was seen to come out of the bathroom.
A question was asked.
The WIFE of JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN emerged from the bathroom. It was revealed, on the spot, that JONNO and the WIFE of JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN had been having an affair for 3 months. (They subsequently denied sex had happened in the bathroom. Make up your own minds. You can also make up your own minds how stupid they were under the circumstances)
Remember, these are very best mates. The wives were all very best friends. Talk about the sh*t hitting the fan. No one has ever revealed what exactly happened outside the bathroom after the bombshell was dropped, but it's said to be ugly.
Two days later, JONNO holds a press conference, where, in tears, he announces that he's quitting the club. JONNO'S WIFE has left him; JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN has left his WIFE; and JONNO'S OTHER BEST MATE, TEAM VETERAN, AND TEAM IRON MAN, host of the BBQ, and a straight-laced chap, is said to be the most devastated of all by the betrayals.
JONNO sits out the season trying to patch up his marriage. JONNO, is, it has to be said, a less than pleasant person. Immensely arrogant, with a conviction for indecent assault. Coming out of a nightclub one night, he grabbed a young woman - who happened to be passing by - by the breast and said to her: "You ought to get a decent set of t*ts".
JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN tries to patch up his marriage, and, apparently, succeeds. JONNO'S OTHER BEST MATE, TEAM VETERAN, AND TEAM IRON MAN remains devastated by the betrayal.
At the beginning of this season, JONNO joins Adelaide, an interstate club.
And, last night, played for his new team against his old team for the first time. Against his EX-BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN, who has now replaced him as captain, and against his EX-OTHER BEST MATE, TEAM VETERAN, AND TEAM IRON MAN.
The game was surreal. The entire focus was on the deeply personal traumas that might or might not be played out under the guise of a football match. The three came together several times - in the normal run of play - and the deeply personal feelings were evident, certainly from JONNO'S two EX-BEST MATES. JONNO, himself, just tried to stay out of trouble. The two EX-BEST MATES were too professional - as footballers - to do anything stupid, but it was plainly obvious that if the lights had been turned out - it was a night match, played under lights - for more than a few seconds, murder would have been committed.
I've seen nothing like it. I'm looking forward, obviously, to the return match.
Oh, and JONNO'S new team won. Handsomely.
Last edited by finbar on 03-05-2003 at 07:07
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Bearcat
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Oregonia
Dec 1999
time: 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
Next time they get scragged just make sure they know who was first there to protect their ass. If that doesn’t make them appreciate you more arrive a fraction of a second later the next time – they’ll soon come round.
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Thanks on the advice, but what exactly does "scragged" translate too in Yanklish?
quote:
And if they still don't appreciate you after having followed Havak's advice, drop a knee into one of their kidneys at the next breakdown. When they look around for the culprit, point at the nearest oppo player. Okay, it won't make them appreciate you, but whomever it is will end up in hospital and his replacement in the team might appreciate you. If not, keep up the process until you get one that does appreciate you. If you end up with a hospital full of backs, none of whom appreciate you, and no more replacements, at least you've had the satisfaction of showing them they're as weak as p*ss. Whereupon you retire, get a job in IT, and call yourself Havak. |
Good stuff!
quote:
Your last line sums it up. As you say, it's pretty much what happened with the Sydney Swans. In their case, it was relocate or die. All thanks to "professionalism". I can't tell you how much I hate it. The saddest thing is that it's a journey from which there's no turning back. Once these decisions are made, once these clubs are merged or disbanded, once the damage is done, there's no undoing it. And perhaps what sh*ts me most of all is the complete and utter disregard for things like the relationship between the town or suburb and its club - the social fabric. It gets shredded because, while it's one of society's greatest assets, it doesn't crack a mention under Assets in the balance sheet. Bastards! |
Has anyone ever considered dropping the system of relegation. Here in America we never drop a professional club, no matter how awful they perform, i.e. the Cincinnati Bengals. Their fans never have to worry about them dropping down to a lower league, but teams still move a lot, so I suppose that's not a very valid argument against relegation. The system just seems kind of weird.
quote:
It all sprang from a highly publicised incident early last year. And, rather than name a lot of names with which you're not familiar, I'll translate the scenario to, for easy reference, Havak's Tigers.
This, in Tiger terms, was the cast in last year's scenario:
JONNO
JONNO'S BEST MATE AND VICE-CAPTAIN
JONNO'S OTHER BEST MATE, TEAM VETERAN, AND TEAM IRON MAN |
Wait, wait now I'm confused!
Seriously though that seems like a real messed up situation. Over here, our athletes just smoke dope and beat their wives.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat
Thanks on the advice, but what exactly does "scragged" translate too in Yanklish? |
Grabbed and thrown to the ground and stuff like that.
quote:
Has anyone ever considered dropping the system of relegation. Here in America we never drop a professional club, no matter how awful they perform, i.e. the Cincinnati Bengals. Their fans never have to worry about them dropping down to a lower league, but teams still move a lot, so I suppose that's not a very valid argument against relegation. The system just seems kind of weird. |
The relegation system is designed to allow movement up and down - to give the teams in the lower division something to aim for, and the teams in the top division something desperately to avoid. Depending on the particular sport, a varying number of the lower division teams are competitive with the top division teams.
Your setups and the setups that allow for relegation are very different. As far as I know, you don't have "second divisions" in any of your major sports. You might well have lesser competitions, but no "second division" tied to the top level. In fact, the battle to avoid relegation - indeed, also, the battle in the lower division for promotion - can be tremendously interesting. An extra bit of a spice added to the season.
quote:
Wait, wait now I'm confused!
Seriously though that seems like a real messed up situation. Over here, our athletes just smoke dope and beat their wives. |
Don't forget they shoot people, too.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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Waratahs 27 -d- Highlanders 23
Brumbies 35 -d- Hurricanes 27
Mmmm. The two Australian teams capable of making the finals produced the goods when they needed to. Neither game was of particularly high standard, but at least the winning teams finally stood up. The Waratahs came from behind at halftime with terrific commitment, ball retention, and an astonishingly brave double loop backline manoeuvre under pressure to score the winning try in the last couple of minutes.
The Hurricanes will be very disappointed. I was, too, as it happens, because I thought they had what it took this year. Their pack, which had showed so much promise, was pushed around, their defence was ordinary, and their lineout was an absolute disaster. Finally, Justin Harrison remembered how to jump and destroyed them with some immaculate reach and timing. And they had no answer.
Queensland Reds 22 -d- Sharks 13
Yes, a trifecta of Australian wins. In fact, the first time since round 3 of last season that all 3 teams have won in the same round. What an appalling statistic.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Yes it does, actually. Great great player, good to see him really actively involved. It was the Fitzpatrick-type attitude that was missing when the ABs disappeared into the wilderness for a couple of years. |
Very true. I'd like to see him more involved in the ABs coaching team also. He would make a great contribution.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat
Don't forget though, that they dropped that one to the Highlanders in Dunedin. The Highlanders are a tough team to beat at home. |
Unfortunately the Waratahs managed to do just that. So...as an American rugby fan - which team would you like to see win the Super 12?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Waratahs 27 -d- Highlanders 23
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I thought the ref made a shocking knock-on call 3/4s of the way through this one. The ball was obviously batted back. Do you know what I'm referring to?
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Anyway, Australians, as they are wont to do, quickly latched onto the slogan and applied it to any situation in which what was being touted wasn't the real thing. For example, if a decision had been reached which was, in fact, a compromise rather than a decision, it was called "a Claytons decision".
Thus, French rugby, which has a salary cap which isn't really a salary cap because it has no ceiling figure, has "a Claytons salary cap". |
Thanks for the explanation Finbar, I like this kind of anecdotes.
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Apolyton Time is 00:26. |
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02-05-2003 06:22
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