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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat
I'd like to see the Blues or Highlanders win, provided they make the semi-finals. I'm not avidly fond of the Crusaders. I'd also like to see the Bulls make the semi-finals but not at the Highlanders expense. |
The Blues, the Crusaders and the Hurricanes are definitely in the semi-finals. They can't miss out now. After the weekend's results, with the wins by the Waratahs and the Brumbies, the fourth spot is the only one up for grabs, and the contenders are the Brumbies, the Highlanders and the Waratahs. The Bulls are theoretical contenders - they can get there mathematically - but their chances are extremely remote. If they do manage to make it, it will have to be at the Highlanders' expense because the Highlanders are contending for the same spot.
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Well we have minor league teams in baseball and hockey that are tied to the major league teams. The professional teams send their draft picks and prospects down to the minor league teams to develop, hence they are called farm teams. But they will never be promoted to the pro leagues. |
Yes, that's the difference. We - well, England and France, et al - have divisions below the top division rather than just minor leagues/feeder clubs. I suppose the major difference is that, under the promotion/relegation system, you don't end up with the same easy-beat cellar-dweller team year after year. They get relegated, someone else comes up to replace them. The only problem with the promotion/relegation system comes when there's a quantifiable difference in standard between the top and second divisions and the promoted team only stays for one season before it's relegated again. But that, itself, is part of the challenge the system offers - it's one thing to be promoted, it's another to stay up there. It really puts the onus on a team to develop its standards.
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Bearcat
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Oregonia
Dec 1999
time: 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
The Blues, the Crusaders and the Hurricanes are definitely in the semi-finals. They can't miss out now. |
Good for the Blues and Hurricanes. Those are two teams I guarantee you people would never have picked to make the semis this year. Somehow I think that the Crusaders are the LA Lakers of the Super 12 though.
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After the weekend's results, with the wins by the Waratahs and the Brumbies, the fourth spot is the only one up for grabs, and the contenders are the Brumbies, the Highlanders and the Waratahs. The Bulls are theoretical contenders - they can get there mathematically - but their chances are extremely remote. If they do manage to make it, it will have to be at the Highlanders' expense because the Highlanders are contending for the same spot. |
Meh, I'll have to a look at the table and schedule, but it would be a terrible tragedy for the Brumbies to make it over the Highlanders.
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Yes, that's the difference. We - well, England and France, et al - have divisions below the top division rather than just minor leagues/feeder clubs. I suppose the major difference is that, under the promotion/relegation system, you don't end up with the same easy-beat cellar-dweller team year after year. They get relegated, someone else comes up to replace them. The only problem with the promotion/relegation system comes when there's a quantifiable difference in standard between the top and second divisions and the promoted team only stays for one season before it's relegated again. But that, itself, is part of the challenge the system offers - it's one thing to be promoted, it's another to stay up there. It really puts the onus on a team to develop its standards. |
Our leagues are too business oriented to go in for something like that. Besides, I don't know how well American fans would or could adapt to such a system.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat
Good for the Blues and Hurricanes. Those are two teams I guarantee you people would never have picked to make the semis this year. Somehow I think that the Crusaders are the LA Lakers of the Super 12 though. |
I suspect the Hurricanes are the surprise. The Blues have usually been around the place at semi-final time, even if their performances this year have been a surprise. Last year was the Crusaders' LA Lakers-year. This year it's a bit more open.
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Meh, I'll have to a look at the table and schedule, but it would be a terrible tragedy for the Brumbies to make it over the Highlanders. |
 It's going to be a very, very interesting last round of matches. Essentially, the Highlanders will have to win and pick up a bonus point against the Reds, hope the Brumbies lose to the Crusaders without picking up a bonus point, and hope the Waratahs lose to the Chiefs.
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Our leagues are too business oriented to go in for something like that. |
Yes, and I think that's possibly the fundamental difference. Your teams are franchises in a restricted competition. The only real way out is to go bankrupt. While that can happen in the other competitions we're talking about - and the threat is becoming very real with the increased costs of "professionalism" - the other competitions are firmly rooted in a traditional concept of clubs representing particular cities or towns or areas competing against each other. It started out tribal, and, in a lot of cases, remains that way. Look at Havak's jaundiced view of the inhabitants of certain other parts of England. Not to mention the inhabitants of certain other parts of the island he occupies! 
I don't know a lot about American sport history, but I suspect your competitions probably also started out in the same tribal way. I'd be interested to know. Somewhere along the line, the current unique concept emerged and developed as it did. That it's so enormously popular means it obviously works.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:26
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quote:
Our leagues are too business oriented to go in for something like that. |
I don't think this has anything to do with it. Soccer for instance works with relegation system in France and is very professional. The most wealthy clubs tend to buy the best players, so they stay on top, even if they can't always be champions, they are quite sure not to be relegated. There's about one club in France that may be atypical in the sense it doesn't have a lot of money but manages to do well, but again, this is a business decision, since said club has a good schools, breeds players and sells them to richer clubs...
In French rugby (enough talk about s***), the relegation system has had an effect of heightening the level of play: Clubs which couldn't pay their players saw them leave, and plummetted. The best example of that is Toulon, whose players include many internationals like Delaigue (now at Toulouse), Dominici, Moni and Comba (Stade Francais), Mignoni (Beziers last time I checked), and many other good players. The club couldn't follow the likes of Toulouse in finances, and they were replaced by other clubs better able to manage their finances. It's a bit of a pity since the club has a great history, and there are many such great clubs in France, but it's always been that way. Even with relegation etc., clubs like Peyrehorade have always fed players to Dax and Mont de Marsan, who then fed them to Toulouse...
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
Will they be? I thought there was England talk of resting some of the key players. I recall Wilkinson wanting to play but Woodward telling him he had to rest. |
I'm only going by this story at rugbyheaven.
http://rugbyheaven.smh.com.au/artic...1381949110.html
Have you heard otherwise?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
It's going to be a very, very interesting last round of matches. Essentially, the Highlanders will have to win and pick up a bonus point against the Reds, hope the Brumbies lose to the Crusaders without picking up a bonus point, and hope the Waratahs lose to the Chiefs. |
I can't see the Chiefs beating the Waratahs in Sydney, and I also think it's unlikely that the Brumbies will lose to the Crusaders without picking up at least one bonus point. The Highlanders should beat the Reds, so I think it'll be the result of the Brumbies/Crusaders game that's the most crucial. If the Brumbies win, even without bonus points, they will definitely take the #4 spot.
Of course, another possible scenario is a three-way tie. If all three teams end up with 32 points, how will it be decided?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
I think you're right. And if they don't win, they don't deserve to make the finals. The Crusaders are going to have injury problems this week, which won't help the cause. And perhaps the biggest influence on the Brumbies performance on the weekend was the return of Owen Finnegan from injury for his first match since last season. He came off the bench but made a big impact driving the ball forward. His reappearance and his results only underlined how much they'd missed him.
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Yeah, it looks good for the Brumbies so far. You never know what will happen with them these days though...
quote:
Equal points brings For and Against into the equation. The team with the biggest differential goes through. |
The Brumbies have the edge in that department, but I would expect the Highlanders to beat the Reds by a greater margin than the Brumbies over the Crusaders.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
The Brumbies have the edge in that department, but I would expect the Highlanders to beat the Reds by a greater margin than the Brumbies over the Crusaders. |
It's a bit more complicated than that. It's total For and Against over the season.
Here's the relevant part of the ladder (as it now stands) with the For and Against:
3. Hurricanes; 35 pts; F=307/A=255
4. Brumbies; 30 pts; F=337/A=285
5. Highlanders; 28 pts; F=264/A=218
6. Waratahs; 27 pts; F=295/A=330
7. Bulls; 26 pts; F=296/A=338
And the relevant draw for next week's final round (home team listed first):
Blues -v- Hurricanes
Brumbies -v- Crusaders
Reds -v- Highlanders
Waratahs -v- Chiefs
Sharks -v- Bulls
The Brumbies only have to beat the Crusaders - without any bonus points - in order to eliminate the Highlanders. That would give the Brumbies 34 pts. Even if the Highlanders win with a bonus point, giving them a total of 33 pts, they miss out. That's why the Brumbies' win and the Highlanders' loss on the weekend were so crucial.
Obviously, a Brumbies win also eliminates the Waratahs and the Bulls.
If the Hurricanes lose without picking up a bonus point, and the Brumbies win with a bonus point, the Brumbies can pinch third spot and relegate the Hurricanes to fourth spot on the For and Against differential. Fourth spot really will be a bit of a poisoned chalice. Whomever finishes fourth must play the Blues at home in their semi. Not everyone's ideal option.
So, really, the Brumbies hold the key. If they win, that's it. If they lose, however, anything's possible. Good grief! If the Brumbies, the Highlanders and the Waratahs were all to lose without picking up a bonus point, and the Bulls were to win with a bonus point, the Bulls could pinch fourth spot!
Last edited by finbar on 05-05-2003 at 17:32
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Bearcat
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Oregonia
Dec 1999
time: 05:26
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
I suspect the Hurricanes are the surprise. The Blues have usually been around the place at semi-final time, even if their performances this year have been a surprise. Last year was the Crusaders' LA Lakers-year. This year it's a bit more open. |
The Hurricanes sure seem to have a lot of players with dreadlocks on their team.
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It's going to be a very, very interesting last round of matches. Essentially, the Highlanders will have to win and pick up a bonus point against the Reds, hope the Brumbies lose to the Crusaders without picking up a bonus point, and hope the Waratahs lose to the Chiefs. |
I think that the Crusaders could beat the Brumbies and the Highlanders could beat the Reds, but I don't think that the Chiefs can beat the Waratahs.
quote:
Yes, and I think that's possibly the fundamental difference. Your teams are franchises in a restricted competition. The only real way out is to go bankrupt. While that can happen in the other competitions we're talking about - and the threat is becoming very real with the increased costs of "professionalism" - the other competitions are firmly rooted in a traditional concept of clubs representing particular cities or towns or areas competing against each other.
I don't know a lot about American sport history, but I suspect your competitions probably also started out in the same tribal way. I'd be interested to know. Somewhere along the line, the current unique concept emerged and developed as it did. That it's so enormously popular means it obviously works. |
Our football teams, as an example, started primarily at the college level and ended up taking root in certain cities in the East and Midwest, like Detroit, Chicago, New York, and Baltimore. The golden age of football and consquently baseball was probably the 1920s and 1930s, before everything was overly commercialized. Even into the 1950s there were great rivalries in baseball like the Brooklyn Dodgers and New York Yankees. Now traditional rivalries are primarily in college sports, like Texas vs. Texas A & M and Nebraska vs. Oklahoma.
quote:
So you tend to favor New Zealand teams? Which team do you usually support in the Tri-nations? |
I'd probably support Australia or South Africa.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
It's a bit more complicated than that. It's total For and Against over the season.
Here's the relevant part of the ladder (as it now stands) with the For and Against:
3. Hurricanes; 35 pts; F=307/A=255
4. Brumbies; 30 pts; F=337/A=285
5. Highlanders; 28 pts; F=264/A=218
6. Waratahs; 27 pts; F=295/A=330
7. Bulls; 26 pts; F=296/A=338
And the relevant draw for next week's final round (home team listed first):
Blues -v- Hurricanes
Brumbies -v- Crusaders
Reds -v- Highlanders
Waratahs -v- Chiefs
Sharks -v- Bulls
The Brumbies only have to beat the Crusaders - without any bonus points - in order to eliminate the Highlanders. That would give the Brumbies 34 pts. Even if the Highlanders win with a bonus point, giving them a total of 33 pts, they miss out. That's why the Brumbies' win and the Highlanders' loss on the weekend were so crucial.
Obviously, a Brumbies win also eliminates the Waratahs and the Bulls. |
DUh! *slaps forehead* Of course! What was I thinking?? I already pointed out that a Brumbies win would ensure they get into the top four...my brain must be fried from all this schoolwork...
quote:
If the Hurricanes lose without picking up a bonus point, and the Brumbies win with a bonus point, the Brumbies can pinch third spot and relegate the Hurricanes to fourth spot on the For and Against differential. Fourth spot really will be a bit of a poisoned chalice. Whomever finishes fourth must play the Blues at home in their semi. Not everyone's ideal option. |
It's gonna be tough watching the Blues/Hurricanes game now...I'll want the Blues to win, but I'll also be wanting the 'canes to pick up a bonus point.
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So, really, the Brumbies hold the key. If they win, that's it. If they lose, however, anything's possible. Good grief! If the Brumbies, the Highlanders and the Waratahs were all to lose without picking up a bonus point, and the Bulls were to win with a bonus point, the Bulls could pinch fourth spot! |
Wouldn't that be something!? Although I suspect their chances against the Blues at home would be slim to none.
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat
Our football teams, as an example, started primarily at the college level and ended up taking root in certain cities in the East and Midwest, like Detroit, Chicago, New York, and Baltimore. |
That's interesting. So did any of the current pro football teams have their roots in college teams? Or did they start up alongside the college teams? With the college teams feeding them as they do now?
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The golden age of football and consquently baseball was probably the 1920s and 1930s, before everything was overly commercialized. |
There was a wonderful documentary TV series on the history of baseball made by Ken Burns - who made the "Civil War" documentary series - shown here last year. I know it was made and shown over there a long, long time ago. But because baseball is a very minor sport here, the TV network obviously thought it wouldn't be of interest. Once they finally showed it, it was absolutely fascinating.
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I'd probably support Australia or South Africa. |
Leaning to the former, obviously.
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04-05-2003 06:19
Which team do you usually support in the Tri-nations?
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