12-03-2003 19:16									#1
	Global Cooling Alert! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This must be the fault of the United States somehow

Or maybe it is just more confirmation of global warming that is also the fault of the United States...

	12-03-2003 19:33									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We can expect the White House to state that when the temperature falls below 0° Celsius, freezing is for a lake the right thing to do.

	12-03-2003 19:37									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A statistically abnormal¹ freezing of the great lakes would mean the climate has changed².


1 - It doesn't appear abnormal given that it happens once a decade and its been a decade since it last froze over.
2 - It could mean a change for warmer or colder.

	12-03-2003 20:07									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This doesn't mean the long term trend has been reversed.

	12-03-2003 20:20									#5
	Got spare money?

What trend would that be? Dont get me wrong, I'm for reducing air-pollution, but "global warming" is just a theory (and not a very good one). Maybe the doomsayers of the 1970's (that were every bit as qualified as the present day variety) who predicted another ice-age caused by greenhouse gases, were correct

	12-03-2003 20:32									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH What trend would that be? Dont get me wrong, I'm for reducing air-pollution, but "global warming" is just a theory (and not a very good one). Maybe the doomsayers of the 1970's (that were every bit as qualified as the present day variety) who predicted another ice-age caused by greenhouse gases, were correct

Global warming isn't a theory, its demonstrated. Mean global temperatures are increasing.

The cause of the warming is the main dispute - is it natural or man-made.

	12-03-2003 20:38									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Mean global temperatures measured over a very small time period are increasing. That is not the same thing as "Global warming" as put forward by the doomsayers as a theory to predict future weather conditions. AFAIK such predictions dont even include the effects of clouds on such warming. Thats not withstanding the fact that (as you say) we dont know the cause of the 'warming' in the first place.

	12-03-2003 20:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

According to this report

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2840137.stm

Greenland is getting colder yet the ice there is melting. So is there global warming or not?

I can't remember names but I do recall several times coming across the allegation that some of the leading forecasters of an ice-age in the near future during the 70's changed to the global warming bandwagon in the early 90's. So it is 50:50 whether they were right or are right. Then again you don't get a budget for researching global warming if you don't claim it is a threat.

	12-03-2003 20:57									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Mean global temperatures measured over a very small time period are increasing. That is not the same thing as "Global warming" as put forward by the doomsayers as a theory to predict future weather conditions. AFAIK such predictions dont even include the effects of clouds on such warming. Thats not withstanding the fact that (as you say) we dont know the cause of the 'warming' in the first place.

If natural it means we are in a cycle that may lead to cooling in the next few centuries, if man-made it will continue to warm. The records for the passed 150+ years show an increasing warming trend.

Either way we are definitely currently in a warming trend - It is by definition Global Warming. We just don't know the cause or the long term implications.

	12-03-2003 21:02									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The melting ice shelf in antartica is often pointed to as evidience of man made global warming but 18th century ships wrote in their captain's logs that they sail that far south and the see was clear of ice.

It seems like nature covers all sorts of strange weather & temperature conditions and we may well just be in a natural cycle.

	12-03-2003 22:45									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Three of North America's Great Lakes -- Lake Huron, Lake Superior and Lake Erie -- have frozen over for the first time in nearly a decade after icy weather lasting more than a month, experts at Environment Canada said on Tuesday.

quote: The large lakes freeze once every decade," said John Falkingham, chief of forecast operations, at the Canadian Ice Service, which is part of Environment Canada.

What's the problem?

	12-03-2003 22:56									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

makes high diving difficult.

Global warning or the next ice age the die is cast.

"The records for the passed 150+ years show an increasing warming trend."

Just about the same as the industrial revolution.

Pollution is worth getting rid of based entirely on it's
current effects without GW warnings.

	13-03-2003 08:17									#13
	Support Apolyton

That's why fusion reactor is now such a Holy Grail.

	13-03-2003 08:29									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

It looks like the weather pattern "normal." The lakes freeze every ten years or so. It's been ten years.

Yeah, let's blame Bush for normal weather. The moron!

	13-03-2003 12:02									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Global warming isn't a theory, its demonstrated. Mean global temperatures are increasing. The cause of the warming is the main dispute - is it natural or man-made.

It very much is theory. The slow, gradual increase in temperatures through the last century is a fact, but for one to extrapolate this data, especially with the known incosistencies of weather throughout history, is unwise. Throughout human history there has been major and mysterious fluctuations in temperature. In England, during the middle ages, they used to have some famous ice festival when some lake used to freeze over annually. But for the last few centuries it has failed to freeze over. There are also numerous theories of possible 'mini' ice ages since the last major one.

'Green house' gases are definately affecting the environment, but how exactly and to what extenet is still very mysterious.

	13-03-2003 12:50									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: It very much is theory. The slow, gradual increase in temperatures through the last century is a fact,

Global Warming is the increase in mean temperatures over the last century.

quote: but for one to extrapolate this data, especially with the known incosistencies of weather throughout history, is unwise.

The IPCC's latest report, based on their weather models, indicates that it's very likely that the industrial contribution to global warming is significant.
http://www.ipcc.ch/pub/un/syreng/spm.pdf

	13-03-2003 13:02									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH What trend would that be? Dont get me wrong, I'm for reducing air-pollution, but "global warming" is just a theory (and not a very good one). Maybe the doomsayers of the 1970's (that were every bit as qualified as the present day variety) who predicted another ice-age caused by greenhouse gases, were correct

The theory of global warming causing ocean currents to change thus resulting in an ice age is well established. Most scientists who study the climate agree that is what happened to set off the last ice age. The disagreement is how much is needed to trigger the event.

	13-03-2003 13:22									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, we are in an "ice age" in that we have icecaps. Supposedly there were periods in the not-so-distant past (geologically speaking) with no icecaps.

	13-03-2003 13:33									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Damn Bush and his his refusal to sign that Environmental agreement in Kyoto

Look what he has done!

Do we need any more evidence to impeach him?

	13-03-2003 13:40									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

I assume you're talking about the "hot house Earth" senerio. The last one of those (which I can remember hearing about while getting my degree in geology) was around 100 million years ago which isn't very recent even by geologic terms. No, we're talking about current areas covered by the Ross Ice shelf being ice free in the 1750s thus we might consider the melting of the Ross Ice shelf to be a resumption of the status quo rather then an over all warming event.

The theory of global warmiung causing a global ice age has to do with increased evaporation of upper most ocean layers (warmest layers) becoming denser due to the saturation of salt and desolved solids thus leading to a "thermal inversion" meaning they dive under colder water rather then sit on top. That would mean a change in global ocean currents and instead of warm tropical currents heading north south (and warming the higher latitudes) we'd see an east-west trend in currents (meaning tropical heat would stay in the tropics instead of warming places like Europe & Korea/Japan.

Boom, instant accumulation of snow in the north and south leading to advancing ice sheets and a self reinforcing system towards a global ice age.

	13-03-2003 23:33									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

how would a system like that ever come to an end? by end i mean how would it ever warm up again? It seems like that type of ice age would go on forever.

	14-03-2003 00:07									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Kramerman: IIRC, the earth was covered with ice COMPLETELY for 5-6 million years, some 650million years ago.

IIRC, vulcanic erruptions opened it up. something gaseous, anyway.



On topic: my air pollution proffessor is not a believer in global warning, though he admitted that most of the scientists do think that this is the correct prognosis.

	14-03-2003 00:53									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

our atmosphere is only like, .01% carbon dioxide (which apparantley causes the warming).

The Mars atmosphere is full of the same stuff, and its ****ing freezing over there.

	14-03-2003 01:03									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"full of the same stuff"?

	14-03-2003 01:04									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Azazel "full of the same stuff"?

don't laugh at me and not have to decency to explain your self!

	14-03-2003 01:35									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

ok, sorry.

I am not aware of the amounts of the CO2 in the Martian atmosphere, but in any case, since the martian atmosphere is bordering the non-existant, in relation to other atmospheric planets in the solar system, I think we can ignore it's effect.

On the other hand, the blocking properties of IR radiation by the CO2 molecules are scientifically proven.

However there are plenty of places where all of this CO2 can go. I'd bet on the oceans.

	14-03-2003 01:36									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Chaos theory says that at a certain point, increases in a stable system will have unpredictable results. One possible result of global warming is that we have hotter summers and colder winters. Another is that we have milder winters and hoter summers or milder summers and milder winters. We could even end up tipping into a new ice age if warming stops the global conveyer current.

	14-03-2003 01:41									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I am not familiar with Chaos, so I cannot comment.

on an unrelated note: do you people use Potassium Salt as a substitute for Table salt? how does it taste?

	14-03-2003 01:55									#29
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: our atmosphere is only like, .01% carbon dioxide (which apparantley causes the warming). The Mars atmosphere is full of the same stuff, and its ****ing freezing over there.

but Mars has no athmosphere like mother earth has!

	14-03-2003 01:57									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

oh and Btw, here in Belgium, winters have become MUCH milder compared to just 10-15 years ago

and, summers usually don't have as much hot days as there used to be... unfortunately, the rain is still omnipresent and i suppose that'll stay for another 100 years!