14-03-2003 07:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If they want to hit us... would they really give us BW for Alphabet? If they are planning on attacking... this would be the best trade we could possibly make.

And if they refuse to trade it to us, what might that mean?

Either way, we need to talk with them and see their attitude before we commit ourselves to trying to acquire any particular deal.

	14-03-2003 07:33									#32
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Are they on very poor production land with a couple of bonus food sources? Like flood plains, or grass with wheat? That might explain the 3 pop sans granery.

btw, big btw, should we continue moving south and around their sides a bit so that when we pop into their view, it will not be so obvious that we come from the north? There are hills further down.

	14-03-2003 07:36									#33
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Further, the second hill would afford a view straight into their capitol.

	14-03-2003 07:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are they on very poor production land with a couple of bonus food sources? Like flood plains, or grass with wheat? That might explain the 3 pop sans granery.

It's a possibility... the scout will tell the story soon though.

quote: btw, big btw, should we continue moving south and around their sides a bit so that when we pop into their view, it will not be so obvious that we come from the north? There are hills further down.

While this is the kind of devious and tactful thing I love doing, in the end it won't matter (where you come from isn't exactly the kind of information you can keep hidden in discussions). When they ask "where do you come from," what effects might saying "we can't tell you" have? It certainly doesn't imply anything friendly...

In response to your 2-4 move, we could instead move 4-2 over the next two turns, which would give us the same view, but give us contact 1 turn sooner, and may reveal a couple more tiles to the north.

	14-03-2003 07:47									#35
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I think if we do move either 4-2 or 2-4, it should be 2-4. They will see us once we do the move 4 either way, and I doubt they would take kindly to us moving 2 along their border (being as it is a move 'towards' their city).

I think making contact now is more sensible, trying to work out a border agreement of some sort ('our scouts won't penetrate X tiles into the jungle if your scouts don't either'), and getting any trading done.

Remember, if they make contact with the French or Indians, we stand to have nothing at all to trade.

	14-03-2003 07:48									#36
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Or, if they say 'go no farther south if ye be freind!', then what do we do?

I would prefer to have the peek into their capitol at the moment of contact. Makes things easier for diplomacy.

As for our reply as to where we come from, we can always say, 'not far, but not close either' until we have a feel for whether things will go well or not. Why do people assume that questions have to answered on their schedule?

	14-03-2003 07:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Or, if they say 'go no farther south if ye be freind!', then what do we do? I would prefer to have the peek into their capitol at the moment of contact. Makes things easier for diplomacy. As for our reply as to where we come from, we can always say, 'not far, but not close either' until we have a feel for whether things will go well or not. Why do people assume that questions have to answered on their schedule?

Because often the willingness to provide information places you on the "friend scale." Whether this is fair or not is irrelevant. Keep in mind, we're dealing with GhengisFarb here...

	14-03-2003 08:14									#38
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Friendship on the basis of stupidity is not very desirable. I think most rational people would see that information would not be served out on demand.

As I said, see if the prospects are favourable, then open up a bit. Telling them where we come from is too open in the absense of fair prospects for peaceful cooperation.

	14-03-2003 08:27									#39
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Call it stupidity if you want. Worse things have occurred in the world of diplomacy. World War I and the loss of 15 million lives was due to a bunch of guys who "couldn't work out their differences."

There are many rules (some "stupid") to diplomacy, many of which Lux - knowingly - broke. You might not know this, only having had contact with 1 other team in the PTW DG, but the continent is well-versed on diplomatic affairs, especially when you have 3 teams packed into a very small area...

	14-03-2003 10:50									#40
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Research is a good thing. I wonder how quick CDG will be to draw swords?

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...4a1b8783406f131

Good ladies and gentlemen of CDG, as you may or may not know we are currently setting up a Intersite Democracy game which will be played against the other sites out there in the Civ 3 Community. Teams such as CFC, Apolyton, 1BC and others will be playing for the honour of their sites and we REALLY want to do well in this. (Coming last would be a real downer ) Apolyton already has 45 hardcore Civ 3 players signed up for their team including some of the best Civ players in the world over there...

	14-03-2003 11:00									#41
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If they think they have an advantage, the fact that they think we're a great team might work against us.

	14-03-2003 11:04									#42
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Is this the team GengisFarb is on or is that CGN?

	14-03-2003 11:06									#43
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GF is on this team.

	14-03-2003 12:05									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Aeson Where do you mean by 1-1-3? (comes out as on a shielded grassland 21)

Sorry about that, it is a bit non-sensical.

I was using an old numbering system of moves based on Dungeon's & Dragon's that me and some of my friends made up for the game. We would sometimes play over the phone when our mom's would send us packing; we were REALLY addicted!

I should say that I meant for the city to be 4-4-1

	14-03-2003 16:25									#45
	Remove this text

Hi all - Just some general comments.

Yes - GF throws around tech like there is no tomorrow.
He will trade anything for anything, and pays little attention their values.
If we go in claiming research values, it will only upset him.

The strategy that he pushed for in GoW (it is no longer relevent as all goodie huts have been popped) is to trade like crazy before any other team has the chance to pop a hut and get the tech you have for free.

He will almost certainly want to organise a tech alliance...again, pretty much ignoring tech values.

He will go for future trades and will honour whatever he agrees to. Just make sure that the trade agreement is understood by both parties ASAP.

He makes deals on the fly, and expects the same.
Be honest with him, and he will return the favour.

So...dont be afraid to agree to a future trade, as he will honour what he says.


This does of course....assume he had a leading part within their team. This is what we need to find out.

	14-03-2003 16:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted on CDG Site President - Kentonio Vice President - Omnimower Domestic Advisor - Skilord Deputy - Recon Defense Advisor - Michaelis Rex Deputy - Guyincorner Foreign Advisor - Louis XXIV Deputy - GhengisFarb Science Advisor - Msahutty Deputy - Tonsoffun Trade and Culture - Bewareofgnomes Deputy - Manya Chief Justice - Kingpin Historian - Manya

Some stuff I found browsing their public ISDG forum, this is from the 27th Feb so it may have changed by now.

	14-03-2003 16:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Hi all - Just some general comments. Yes - GF throws around tech like there is no tomorrow. He will trade anything for anything, and pays little attention their values. If we go in claiming research values, it will only upset him. The strategy that he pushed for in GoW (it is no longer relevent as all goodie huts have been popped) is to trade like crazy before any other team has the chance to pop a hut and get the tech you have for free. He will almost certainly want to organise a tech alliance...again, pretty much ignoring tech values. He will go for future trades and will honour whatever he agrees to. Just make sure that the trade agreement is understood by both parties ASAP. He makes deals on the fly, and expects the same. Be honest with him, and he will return the favour. So...dont be afraid to agree to a future trade, as he will honour what he says. This does of course....assume he had a leading part within their team. This is what we need to find out.

This is good knowledge and especially considering that you are the Deputy Ambassador to GF's team (CDG; Persians) I'm wondering if it is GF's team however and what kind of role he plays as of right now. I'd imagine that his role may get larger as time goes on. He may even be their Ambassador to Apolyton (among other things). We shall soon find out.

Also, good job jim_steer!

	14-03-2003 17:07									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Hi all - Just some general comments. Yes - GF throws around tech like there is no tomorrow. He will trade anything for anything, and pays little attention their values. If we go in claiming research values, it will only upset him. The strategy that he pushed for in GoW (it is no longer relevent as all goodie huts have been popped) is to trade like crazy before any other team has the chance to pop a hut and get the tech you have for free. He will almost certainly want to organise a tech alliance...again, pretty much ignoring tech values. He will go for future trades and will honour whatever he agrees to. Just make sure that the trade agreement is understood by both parties ASAP. He makes deals on the fly, and expects the same. Be honest with him, and he will return the favour. So...dont be afraid to agree to a future trade, as he will honour what he says. This does of course....assume he had a leading part within their team. This is what we need to find out.

Is it not also possible that GFarb *knows* that you know these things about him, and might reverse his usual trends or reccomend same to his higher-ups?

That's certainly what I would do if I knew a solid profile had been built on me by my foes....

	14-03-2003 17:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Is it not also possible that GFarb *knows* that you know these things about him, and might reverse his usual trends or reccomend same to his higher-ups? That's certainly what I would do if I knew a solid profile had been built on me by my foes....

Nope - I dont think so.

He will want to trade like mad in attempt to get a jump on as many teams as possible. It is his tactics.

From Jim_Steers post, it does not look like he is running the whole game...but he is a Deputy Foreign Advisor.

So he may...or may not have any influence at all.

We will find out soon enough.

	14-03-2003 18:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Yes - GF throws around tech like there is no tomorrow. He will trade anything for anything, and pays little attention their values. If we go in claiming research values, it will only upset him.

Sounds like you're saying we should be afraid of him, and trade on his terms. Sounds like he always likes to get his way. Such a personality screams for a strong diplomatic effort from our team (assuming, of course, we're not planning on being his or his team's lap-dog).


Dominae

	14-03-2003 22:40									#51
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That kind of personality is best dealt with by talking with other teams. If he wants to get a tech and fling it around like mad, we just make sure to negotiate things beforehand with the other teams so that he doesn't do so. It will take quite a bit of trust and it may hurt us short-term, but it will be necessary to make sure that the tech market doesn't become as hyper-deflated as in the PTW DG.

	14-03-2003 23:05									#52
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Okay, here's a question for anyone willing to answer it:

If you don't feel blocking CDG's scouting attempts into our peninsula is something important, why do you feel it matters which direction our Warrior comes from when we make contact?

	15-03-2003 00:16									#53
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If you are asking the reasoning behind why 24 is better than 42, consider that the end tile is 1 move removed from their capitol and can see in. If they've left their capitol open, it doesn't look like we are agressive, but they have to respond that turn either with a unit (at this point probably losing production on a Granary) or by negotiation. If they don't, they risk us walking into their city untouched.

If we slide along their cultural border in their view to this point, it looks agressive. From the hill 4 of Wbigfree1, a move 2 is a move towards their capitol (2 turns distance to 1).

The problems I already stated, we lose a turn of contact. If they talk to India or France in that turn, we've been left out of the trading loop. Not a bit risk, but it's there.

	15-03-2003 00:21									#54
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And we end up wasting a turn researchin BW which we will (hopefully) trade for. The longer we delay contact, the more beakers we waste.

	15-03-2003 00:55									#55
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Yes, although we don't have to spend any research if we think we can get BW. I was giving the 'trump' drawback relating to BW, that we increase the risk that we may not be able to trade for it at all.

Just to be clear, you asked for reasoning why it would be in our best interest to move in such a manner and I gave some. I don't support either 24 or 42.

	15-03-2003 00:55									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Regarding Ghengis Farb and his trade tactics:

If he gets control of their trade policy I can't see him acting any differently. He has been extremely successful in the Team game with his unorthodox style, and I'm sure that his team will warm up quickly to his tactics.

Here's the deal: We've all been trained by the SP game that techs are worth a lot of cash, and the AI forces us to put increasing value on them based on their research time and (to some extent) their availablity.

In a game with humans, however, those artificial values are meaningless. Tech value is purely market based and the merchant with the lowest prices is the one who makes the most sales. A tech, once researched, has fullfilled it's value and any additional coin you make in selling it is a bonus. This is a part of GF's philosophy, he'd rather make something than nothing, even if the something is extremely trival.

(sidenote: There is tremendous value in DENYING a nation a tech they need, but such tactics are rarely possible once multiple contacts are established. About the best you can hope for is to delay when a nation receives a tech or to hoard a specified tech and never trade it, giving your nation the sole benefits until someone else researches it).

When dealing with a merchant who has no qualms about underselling anyone, you get the benefit of bargain basement prices on techs you need ... but if you want to sell your techs, you MUST sign no-trade clauses. You are also protected to some extent by signing multi-trade deals and future trade deals with other neighbors if you think that the crazy merchant will aquire and resell your tech.

Frankly, GF's tactic makes tech "sales" practially pointless and makes tech "trades" the only reasonable alternative. As an interesting note to this, the actual research time/value of your tech gets deflated in such a market ... and it becomes better to have many small techs to exchange instead of 1 major tech .... unless, of course you can assure yourself that you are the only one with the "major tech"...

This actually goes against the "rule". In fact, if you can assure yourself of being the only one to hold a "major" tech, you can make a killing in the market as you have a Monopoly with a tech that no one wants to research themselves, and you can demand whatever price the others can pay ... and if several of them all have the same minor techs to trade you, you can REALLY play the market by making them bid against each other to aquire that one key tech.

If we can aquire several trading partners to allow the tech deflation to really set in, we should only shoot for techs we need and techs with a high-end resale value. All of the basic techs will go for pennies on the dollar and we'll have several different trade partners to aquire them from. With this tactic No-Trades are, of course, a must.

--Togas

	15-03-2003 00:57									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This is mainly an issue for the FAM and MOI. 2-4 means we get contact later, which means we will end up spending more on research than is necessary. The unit gets the same place either way, so it's not really a concern of the MOW.

	15-03-2003 08:22									#58
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I have a little "insider" info (I'm not spying or anything it's just some things a certain somebody from the CDG team told me)

Basically, CDG is - to a certain degree of course - counting on GF "knowing" us as to determine our play style. We of course have much more to lose since he knows most of our "big shots" yet we only know him. Supposedly he is also making a major contribution to the team even though on paper he's only a deputy.

From what I hear, I have a feeling CDG would trade BW for something so I suggest that if we are really consider making this trade, we do it ASAP so we don't lose any more beakers.

	15-03-2003 09:22									#59
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Well, all we have is Alphabet. For bW by itself? I think not.

btw, 9 turns to BW after contact. Less than that since we get another commerce in 2 turns.

	15-03-2003 09:52									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I have a little "insider" info (I'm not spying or anything it's just some things a certain somebody from the CDG team told me) Basically, CDG is - to a certain degree of course - counting on GF "knowing" us as to determine our play style. We of course have much more to lose since he knows most of our "big shots" yet we only know him. Supposedly he is also making a major contribution to the team even though on paper he's only a deputy. From what I hear, I have a feeling CDG would trade BW for something so I suggest that if we are really consider making this trade, we do it ASAP so we don't lose any more beakers.

To tell you the truth...I am not surprised. He doesnt seem to be the lurker type
GF will certainly have a special interest in us. Whether this is good or bad, remains to be seen.