14-03-2003 04:59									#1
	Contact Immenant with CDG (Persians) Put an end to popups!

We will make contact with Elucidia (Creative Design Group-CDG-Persians) next turn. It's not good that we have problems with our terrain, but we will also have Immortals next to us.

E_T

	14-03-2003 05:01									#2
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Trade!

We have Pottery and Alphabet. They have Bronze Working... obvious choice.
They're probably going for Iron Working. Time for Writing.
Our NMs can keep their Immortals at bay... thankfully.

We should try to negotiate a border agreement ASAP. The more land (hooray... jungle) we can get the better.

	14-03-2003 05:06									#3
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Get me the Email addy/contact info for CDG.

I will start a new thread dealing with our procedure for First Contact.

Frankly, we should begin negotiating a trade now so that next turn we can make an offer and they will know how to respond.

--Togas

	14-03-2003 05:09									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We can't contact them now, as we have no contact with them in-game. As far as the rules go, I think that we have to wait till next turn at the earliest.

	14-03-2003 05:09									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Get me the Email addy/contact info for CDG.

All (known) contact emails are included in the InfoCenter thread.

	14-03-2003 05:11									#6
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Trade, trade! Partners for life, Carthage and Persia. Let us band together and cut down that jungle together, for the benefit of both our peoples.

Ahem. That's my take on things.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 05:14									#7
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Dominae, you reminded me of "I propose negotiation!" there again.

Bigfree is right. We have to wait until next turn, but the Foreign Ministry can come up with some stuff by the time we're ready to play the turn, I'm sure...

	14-03-2003 05:23									#8
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We should also be aware that they may have contact with some other team already. So maybe BW and something else they can offer for Pottery and Alphabet?

That other hut might not be around for long, but there is nothing we can do about it, unless we retreat 'bigfree1' back to it. (That was weird; refering to myself in the third person )

By the time we get another unit built, I'd bet it was long popped by then.

Also, after we go into their territory, to make contact, will we go back the way we came or try to scout 'accross' their territory? They are not likely to have any units to threaten us with, but it would sure make them angry at us for quite a bit. What if they do not have any units at home? Do we attempt to march right in?

Something to think about.

	14-03-2003 05:32									#9
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Editor values:

Bronze Working: 3
Alphabet: 5
Pottery: 2
Iron Working: 6
Writing: 8

Pottery and Alphabet for Bronze Working is a horrible deal for us. It would be nice not to have to research Bronze Working ourselves, but we should not give too much to accomplish this. I'll leave it up to the diplomats to figure things out, but I just want to make sure everyone knows the true costs of things. Alphabet is not equivalent to Pottery, even though they're both tier 1 techs!


Dominae

	14-03-2003 05:33									#10
	Remove this text

I assume we will make contact, move NW then N, heading generally back to the hut. If they have good terrain/met others already, they may not have a unit in the jungle at all. We may still get that hut.

	14-03-2003 05:38									#11
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Some basics being established would be nice.

Would they be open to agree that cultural borders will be respected?

Is it possible that they want to remain peaceful and enter into a trading arrangement? They research x and we research y?

Can they share any information they have about the world beyond them?

Now reverse those questions.
Are we willing to respect cultural borders?
Do we want peace and research agreements?
Do we want to reveal what the lands to the north are like?

	14-03-2003 05:41									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are we willing to respect cultural borders? Do we want peace and research agreements? Do we want to reveal what the lands to the north are like?

Yes to all three (although we can take our time with the third...).


Dominae

	14-03-2003 05:41									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes to 1 and 2. No to 3. I dont want other units in our borders and we need research agreements to keep up in tech. But if they find out what our land is like, they might think that we would try to attack them soon anyways, depsite the jungle.

	14-03-2003 05:51									#14
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We should avoid the exploration issue if at all possible. As long as we don't wander into their cultural borders, we should be fine. Last thing we need is the team with Immortals knowing what our terrain is like, and able to see that we don't have any NMs...

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Pottery and Alphabet for Bronze Working is a horrible deal for us. It would be nice not to have to research Bronze Working ourselves, but we should not give too much to accomplish this. I'll leave it up to the diplomats to figure things out, but I just want to make sure everyone knows the true costs of things. Alphabet is not equivalent to Pottery, even though they're both tier 1 techs!

Obviously.

If we're alone, we may be able to get Pottery + some gold for BW, then Alphabet + some gold for IW. What a deal that would be.

	14-03-2003 05:51									#15
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I wouldn't mind making the Alphabet->BW trade, if CDG is willing to 'credit' us with some future consideration worth cost 2. Then they could research Mathmatics as their second while we hit Writing, giving us both valuable trading techs.

It of course depends a lot on what CDG considers to be their best interests, but we should try to keep both of our tech rates as high as possible at least until more contacts are made.

	14-03-2003 05:53									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I wouldn't mind making the Alphabet->BW trade, if CDG is willing to 'credit' us with some future consideration worth cost 2. Then they could research Mathmatics as their second while we hit Writing, giving us both valuable trading techs. It of course depends a lot on what CDG considers to be their best interests, but we should try to keep both of our tech rates as high as possible at least until more contacts are made.

Trading in this manner is far too risky. Especially at this point in the game. Even with "official agreements," unless something is cemented in stone (that is, in the game), you should not trust anyone to come through with a deal like that. Trust me, this comes from prior experience...

	14-03-2003 05:56									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Do we want to reveal what the lands to the north are like?

In order to successfuly block them form knowing what's up North maybe we should build our 2nd city West (1-1-3) to block their scouting abilities. It looks like we'd have coastal access there as well.

	14-03-2003 05:59									#18
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I don't like the idea of 'future' bargains (unless we hold the 'credits'). There may be numerous happenings before a time comes when we ask for the favor in return. We should try to avoid trades that are back-ended.

	14-03-2003 05:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 In order to successfuly block them form knowing what's up North maybe we should build our 2nd city West (1-1-3) to block their scouting abilities. It looks like we'd have coastal access there as well.

That's an excellent idea.

	14-03-2003 05:59									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I don't like the idea of 'future' bargains (unless we hold the 'credits'). There may be numerous happenings before a time comes when we ask for the favor in return. We should try to avoid trades that are back-ended.

Yes... I will never support a "future-deal" of any sort. They just don't hold together well.

	14-03-2003 06:05									#21
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Cost 2 is a cheap price to pay to know how far we can trust our neighbors in the future. BW gives us our defense (and best 'offense').

I understand that Lux didn't have much luck in Diplomacy, but the rest of the teams seem to be doing quite well so far.

	14-03-2003 06:15									#22
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Near the start of the game, Lux traded IW to Vox for a future sum (everything was outlined in an official agreement). However, when it came time to pay up, Vox demanded more for what we had originally agreed to. Keep in mind, this was about 2 1/2 months ago. It just goes to show that no matter what, you have to watch out... Either way, future deals are bad.

	14-03-2003 06:23									#23
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Where do you mean by 1-1-3? (comes out as on a shielded grassland 21)

If we build W, 111 is our best bet. If we try building out on the W coast, we probably lose out on using any shielded grassland, only having access to 1 tile of 2 food (unshielded grassland).

	14-03-2003 06:27									#24
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That's one instance, doesn't make for very good statistics. I'm sure you can appreciate that some teams in the game have had future deals pay off for them in a manner which benefits both teams. We shouldn't just disregard running a credit between teams if it has the potential to benefit both of us.

	14-03-2003 06:30									#25
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Lets not alter our city location discussion at this point based on finding CDG. Placing cities at this point in the game for the purpose of sealing off land/getting resources or luxuries, etc, when there are city sites available that will be less corrupt, earlier to defend, and more productive in the short and long term is a BAD idea. just ask members of lux. I cannot support "placing cities in the jungle before we otherwise would to seal off more land"

btw, I do support eventually moving into the jungle. along the river, but only after we have site 3-3-3-3 first.

	14-03-2003 06:33									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson That's one instance, doesn't make for very good statistics. I'm sure you can appreciate that some teams in the game have had future deals pay off for them in a manner which benefits both teams. We shouldn't just disregard running a credit between teams if it has the potential to benefit both of us.

One instance is one instance more than we want to deal with, and it shows that it can happen.

All I'm saying is that we should not commit ourselves to a deal like that until we know more about who we're dealing with. For all we know, they could take our techs, have iron already linked, and attack 10 turns later. Unlikely, but possible. My point is that we need a better feel for the situation before we start making deals like that.

	14-03-2003 06:52									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

"Future deals" obviously depend on how much the two teams mutually trust each other. Remember that if we want the Persians to credit us, we have to be pretty trustworthy and honorable as well. Reciprocity is important.

But I will leave this to the diplomats...

Come to think of it, where are they!?!


Dominae

	14-03-2003 06:56									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Togas is probably at work or getting home from it. I'll be sure to bug him about things in the chatroom.

	14-03-2003 06:57									#29
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If they want to hit us... would they really give us BW for Alphabet? If they are planning on attacking... this would be the best trade we could possibly make.

	14-03-2003 06:58									#30
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To clarify, I think they have Pottery already. They haven't built a Settler yet (usually a clear sign of a Granary build), so all we really have to trade is Alphabet and some gold.