14-03-2003 06:48									#1
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Lets dedicate a thread for the location of our 2nd city.

My first choice in 3-3-3-3 as I have stated before, why?

1) River. Will give us a decent boost in commerce.

2) Coast. Allows us chance to get an early city going that can build boats as well as the Collossus (if we want that too).

3) Starts the "River Jungle Project". Will start the process of locating cities along that river, in the general direction of CDG. One thing about this. Let's not place cities in the jungle until we can provide adequate worker support as well as a city (at least one) to the west of Apolyton that wil not have jungle impeding growth too much as they can provide units for defense better than new jungle cities.

	14-03-2003 06:53									#2
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3333 adds another corruption over a city site 1 tile closer. That means at 3 shields per turn (mined grassland), we lose one. At the 4 commerce per turn we start with, we also lose one.

On the other side of the river 223 or 226 we don't have that problem, and can soak up the excess food we would waste from the Game tile.

	14-03-2003 06:54									#3
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Problems with this site:
Won't have access to the game tile, and will have corruption and waste that wouldn't exist if the city was in another site. I believe the site that Aeson proposed that didn't have these problems was 2-2-3.

[Edit]Looks like Aeson beat me to it. [/Edit]

	14-03-2003 08:11									#4
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I like 223 over 226.

a) claims more of the jungle - if that becomes an issue down the road with the possum

b) still leaves room for city3333 down the road.

	14-03-2003 08:13									#5
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223.

	14-03-2003 08:39									#6
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The points for 223 over 226 are:

- 223 gets founded a turn earlier
- has initial use of the shielded grassland on the river
- can be connected with roads 12 Worker turns earlier (assuming we don't want to waste turns roading Jungles before they are cleared)

	14-03-2003 08:46									#7
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Oops, did not realise this thread existed. I started a whole other thread on city placement. Anyway, my vote is for 111.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 09:33									#8
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I just thought I'd point out that my numbering is backwards, 226 is the one which the points I made are in favor of.

	14-03-2003 09:42									#9
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Sorry, a dumb question: we're using anothes notation to locate tiles in the C3DG... How does this "3-3-2-6" (or "1-1-2-4", whatever) thing works?

	14-03-2003 09:43									#10
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It's directions based off the number pad. The numbers are all starting from Apolyton.

	14-03-2003 09:44									#11
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Thanks, Aeson.

	14-03-2003 21:31									#12
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Top priority should be placing 3 river cities.

3-3-3-3 works out best as the eastern anchor of these cities considering the length of the river.

We may want to consider building the western anchor first considering our neighbor to the Southwest though.

In any case, the 3rd city should be the other river anchor and the 4th city the central river city.

	14-03-2003 22:10									#13
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With all due respect, I'm going to disagree completely with everyone but Dominae... we have someone immediately to our south, and we *don't even know* what that land west of us is like. If we site our second city at 1-1-4, we have a hill site (may end up being important for defense- those are PERSIANS down there, guys, not India, Immortals aren't there for pattycake, and they ARE going to be used on SOMEONE,) we'll see what the land west of us looks like (could be a lot of things, but any of them are better than jungle, except maybe mountains) and we'll have access to 2 shielded grasslands, plus a few normal greens, and forest. A shielded grassland and a forest together may not make for a tremendous growth city, but it'll make for a good military center, which as I've argued in other threads, we need to consider.

Against this we're looking at a site that has 1 shielded grassland and raw jungle, just because it has a river? Let's get a city we can use NOW built now, and when we have a few more workers - or at least a second active, productive city, then move to the jungle. Persia isn't going to fight us for space in Bananaland this early. They might fight us for that land west of us, though. The jungle-river area city is a good idea, but at best we'll have 1, maybe two useful squares from it.

Right now, we need more. I say 1-1-4. We are assured of multiple usable squares there, and we need two production centers- there are too many demands on Apolyton's time right now, and if we're going to take advantage of that granary, we need a dedicated settler factory there. 1-1-4 gives us a potentially dedicated Nummie site to defend those settlers with.

Dominae's idea to go 1-1-1 isn't bad, but I'd feel a lot safer with a Numidian on a hill, than having a hill right next to my city for Immortals to camp out on.

Respectfully,

	14-03-2003 22:30									#14
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Fried-Psitalon, I'm currenly supporting a plan that puts a city 111 from Apolyton, and another 223 (probably founded in that order). The reason I do not like 114 is that it makes it tougher to squeeze in a city to share the Game tile, unless we're willing to "break down" and do some serious 2-tile city placement (this may be useful in some circumstances, but in general I would rather set up some nice permanent cities first). 223 is economically a better site, but 111 pushes us further toward the Persians and the western coast, which the Minister of War (Trip) prefers.

I believe our goal is for peace with Persia at this point, because they have a scary UU and our lands are not exactly superb. So expanding towards them is simply a means of (peacefully) denying them land and making us appear bigger than we are. Founding cities at strategic locations (like on a Hill) is useful, to be sure, but sort of counter-productive if we do not plan to be at war with the Persians anytime soon.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 22:33									#15
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You will note that in another thread I seriously question the idea of long-term peace with Persia, for precisely the reasons you state. But I'll keep that to the thread there.


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=80545

	14-03-2003 22:37									#16
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Fried-Psitalon, the thing I have to give you more credit for than most of the rest of these guys is thinking in the "now." While thinking long-term is great when you can see the whole map, and have a border treaty, and know you'll be in the same situation that you're in in 100+ turns, with a fluid situation, that's not the case. Sometimes you have to make long-term sacrifices to protect your short-term interests.

	15-03-2003 00:37									#17
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For what it's worth, 226 has just as much 'now' production potential. We are placing cities tightly packed, and so there is a lot of tile sharing going on. If we place a city W, Apolyton can use the shielded grasslands S. If we place the city S, Apolyton can use the shielded grasslands W.

In either case, Apolyton has access to 2 shielded grasslands and the other city has access to 2 (they don't have to be split that way). Down on the river and at 111, at least we can soak up the 2 food from Apolyton every 4 turns that would be lost otherwise.

-----------------------------

And Trip, I know we don't agree on things. It doesn't mean I'm not thinking about 'now', I am. I may have a different perspective on what is best 'now', but it doesn't mean I don't consider it. It's quite insulting for you to imply that I don't. (I am speaking for myself here, on the assumption that you include me in 'the rest of these guys', which I'm pretty sure is a safe one.)

	15-03-2003 01:49									#18
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No offense meant, I just think the different camps have vastly different priorities, and you guys just disagree on some issues Togas, myself and others from the continental powers feel need to be addressed.

	15-03-2003 02:11									#19
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Assuming we are going to Borg and we dont care that the city in one away from the coast, 223 in the best location. Our second city then can be 114 (on the hill). Then we can consider 1122, which will be on the river, will have access to one shielded grassland, as well as the dye with one border expansion. My only potential problem about this placement is that none of these are coastal locations. How much priority do we want on a coastal city?

	15-03-2003 03:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Assuming we are going to Borg and we dont care that the city in one away from the coast, 223 in the best location. Our second city then can be 114 (on the hill). Then we can consider 1122, which will be on the river, will have access to one shielded grassland, as well as the dye with one border expansion. My only potential problem about this placement is that none of these are coastal locations. How much priority do we want on a coastal city?

I would make it a med-high priority on obtaining a coastal city. The sooner we can scout other possible land masses with ships and thus, the sooner we can become the Tech Trade Kings.

That's why I support the 2nd city at 4-4-1; it's got coastal access and blocks off the North passages.

If we go for Writing we should then immediately go for Map making.

	17-03-2003 04:46									#21
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Writing, Map Making, and prioritizing a coastal city are all premature at this point. We could in fact be connected to numerous other civs. In any case, the ordering in which we found our cities will not matter very much, considering the time it will take to get Map Making. Thus getting a coastal city first is of no use whatsoever, as long as we've got one by Map Making (or some time before, if we want to prebuild a Galley).


Dominae

	17-03-2003 23:16									#22
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I dought we are Borging.

In any case, just placing the second city without an overall plan is backwards.

Let's decide how many cities along that southern river we want first, then decide placement for that entire region. I sugest three cities along that river.

	17-03-2003 23:57									#23
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Yes, we need to figure out what our priority should be for building cities, be it maximum production, establishing a border, most commerce, building naval units, getting luxuries, etc. I think the biggest issues would be getting some good productive cities and some that can help us shape the border. I still think we need to make a city on the coast down south that will block CDG off from the north-east within a reasonable period of time.

	18-03-2003 04:32									#24
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I would think commerce (research) is in our best interests now; especially if we get the deal with Persia.

Deciding where cities can be placed from both standpoints of Tactical and Economical situations would do us well.