16-03-2003 02:20									#61
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OK, my 2 cents:

1) It's easy to check whether we were really researching BW from the very beginning - the very capital city tile of a commercial civ gives 3 gold, which would be 60 beakers (at 100%) by this time. They would not believe we were unable to get those 12 "theoretically" missing ones. It would look very odd at least -> bad idea.

2) If we pretend we set research to 10%, we'd supposedly have to have loads of cash -> price for the rest of BW goes higher -> bad idea.

3) We were actually not researching for 2 turns (the first one and the one between popping huts #2 and #3). They do not know that and have no way to find out. So I would assume it perfectly safe to negotiate as if we were 3+5=8 beakers further into BW than we are. Plus, they have little means to find out we are not on a river - which would put us 20-30 beakers further into BW. This means that - realistically - we could be about 50/72 beakers into BW with no extraordinary terrain-related luck.

4) Considering this, I will support the "almost no lie " approach: We researched Pottery first and went for BW immediately afterwards. We are now just few turns from discovering it - as we were lucky with a hut and got 25 gold, we'd consider speeding our research a little bit, buying the "rest" of BW from you, if the price is right. Care to come with a figure?

5) If the offered price is more than 15 gold, I would bargain, explaining that we would be better off finishing our own research. I would accept 15 gold or less (that should not provoke any suspicions).

	16-03-2003 02:20									#62
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I will take your advice notyoueither. Here's the letter I will send:

Greetings form Apolyton

Dear Ambassador,

We have made contact with your Warrior Alfred.

Our Nation is aware that your's started with knowledge of Masonry and Bronze Working. I'm sure you know that we started with Masonry and Alphabet.

We would like to set up a mutually beneficial Trade arangement with one of our neighbors. I would like to respectfully request that you let us know what you are currently reasearching. We are reserching BW. We are very close at this point.

We are not really interested so much in trading BW as we might be with what you are currently researching. We should share information as to what our future plans are for Tech research so that we don't duplicate research. I'm sure the other teams are thinking of this as well as no one wants to fall behind anyone else in the market of Technology.

I've told you that we are researching BW, had we known you were one of our neighbor's we wouldn't have chosse that goal, rather we would have counted on building a strong trading relationship with your team instead. The likelyhood of us have a mutually beneficial relationship throughout this game is very great, I would go so far as to say it's a sure thing.

Please let us know what you are reasearching and we can start to negotiate for Technolgies that we have now for ones that you will have in the future. I will then also share what our plans for the next Tech we will be reaserching after BW is.

BTW, We researched Pottery first and went for BW immediately afterwards. We are now just few turns from discovering it - as we were lucky with a hut and got 25 gold, we'd consider speeding our research a little bit, buying the "rest" of BW from you, if the price is right. Care to come with a figure?

Has your team had any luck with the Goddy Huts? Ours has been a mixed bag. I'll show you mine if you show me yours?

Respectfully bigfree1
Ambassador to the Eclucidian Nation


------------------------------------------------------------

Or should I put something in there now offering to buy BW or asking them if they would consider selling it us us so that we can get on to our next item quicxker?

EDIT: I see vondacks post and the request for purchase of BW. That's sounds fine to me and I will add it in.

It is edited now. Sound good?

Last edited by on 16-03-2003 at 02:27

	16-03-2003 02:24									#63
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm sorry but getting barbarians from one of our huts doesn't help us make the case that we got a tech from another. It lowers the probability that we did no matter how many huts we opened, because it is proof that one of them wasn't a tech.

If they guess we've opened 10, they only use the probability that we got a tech for 9. If they guess we've opened 1, they only use the probability that we got a tech for 0. Regardless of how many they guess we've opened, they'll see it as less chance because they know we got barbarians from a hut.

	16-03-2003 02:26									#64
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The fact that we are near enough to BW to be willing to finish it ourselves is enough. If they don't believe us, fine. Drop it. The best way to convince them of the truth of our position is to be willing to drop it. If we drop it, they will come back in a turn or two, at which point its value to us will be lower, of course.

I agree, of course. We need not spell things out in explicit detail, just give them a casual run-down of our situation, keep the details fuzzy, and be friendly about it. We're already researching it anyhow, so if they're not going to give us a very discounted price (they probably will if GF has anything to say about it), then thank them, chat it up about future deals ... you research this, we're thinking about researching this and that ... and so forth.

Most important thing now is just to make a good impression, get the lines of communication going, and (most importantly) get both of our nations set on different research paths so that we can be assured of future tech swaps. If they're smart they'll pick up the clues and make a couple coins off us now for helping speed our research along.

--Togas

	16-03-2003 02:31									#65
	Inflate your Upload Space

Since hardly anyone goes back and re-reads posts that they've already read; I will post the edited version here:

Dear Ambassador,

We have made contact with your Warrior Alfred.

Our Nation is aware that your's started with knowledge of Masonry and Bronze Working. I'm sure you know that we started with Masonry and Alphabet.

We would like to set up a mutually beneficial Trade arangement with one of our neighbors. I would like to respectfully request that you let us know what you are currently reasearching. We are reserching BW. We are very close at this point.

We are not really interested so much in trading BW as we might be with what you are currently researching. We should share information as to what our future plans are for Tech research so that we don't duplicate research. I'm sure the other teams are thinking of this as well as no one wants to fall behind anyone else in the market of Technology.

I've told you that we are researching BW, had we known you were one of our neighbor's we wouldn't have chosse that goal, rather we would have counted on building a strong trading relationship with your team instead. The likelyhood of us have a mutually beneficial relationship throughout this game is very great, I would go so far as to say it's a sure thing.

Please let us know what you are reasearching and we can start to negotiate for Technolgies that we have now for ones that you will have in the future. I will then also share what our plans for the next Tech we will be reaserching after BW is.

BTW, We researched Pottery first and went for BW immediately afterwards. We are now just few turns from discovering it - as we were lucky with a hut and got 25 gold, we'd consider speeding our research a little bit, buying the "rest" of BW from you, if the price is right. Care to come with a figure?

Has your team had any luck with the Goddy Huts? Ours has been a mixed bag. I'll show you mine if you show me yours?

Respectfully bigfree1
Ambassador to the Eclucidian Nation
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Any other recommendations?

	16-03-2003 02:33									#66
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OK, a slightly adjusted version of you rletter I would prefer:

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Greetings form Apolyton Dear Ambassador, We have made contact with your Warrior AlfredArnold. Our Nation is aware that your's started with knowledge of Masonry and Bronze Working. I'm sure you know that we started with Masonry and Alphabet. We would like to set up a mutually beneficial Trade arrangement with one of our neighbors. I We would like to respectfully request that you let us know what you are currently reasearching. We are researching BW. We are very close to its discovery at this point. We are not really interested so much in obtaining BW from you as we might be with what you are currently researching. We should share information as to what our future plans are for Tech research so that we don't duplicate research. I'm sure the other teams are thinking of this as well as no one wants to fall behind anyone else in the market of Technology. I've told you that we are researching BW, had we known you were one of our neighbor's we wouldn't have chosse that goal, rather we would have counted on building a strong trading relationship with your team instead. The likelyhood of us have a mutually beneficial relationship throughout this game is very great, I would go so far as to say it's a sure thing. Sorry, just sauce, no meat. Please let us know what you are reasearching and we can start to negotiate for Technologies that we have now for ones that you will have in the future. I will then also share what our plans for the next Tech we will be reasearching after BW is are. Has your team had any luck with the Godody Huts? Ours has been a mixed bag. We'll show you mine ours if you show me us yours? Respectfully bigfree1 Ambassador to the Eclucidian Nation

Sorry for nit-picking on spelling, it's a habit of mine... but we should really have at least the name of their Warrior and their nation right.

EDIT: cross-posted with bigfree. Please, correct the name of the Warrior and their nation.

	16-03-2003 02:41									#67
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Looking good. Yes, misnaming them would be unfortunate in an introduction.

	16-03-2003 02:45									#68
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Dear Ambassador,

We have made contact with your Warrior Arnold.

Our Nation is aware that yours started with knowledge of Masonry and Bronze Working. I'm sure you know that we started with Masonry and Alphabet.

We would like to set up a mutually beneficial Trade arrangement with one of our neighbors. I would like to respectfully request that you let us know what you are currently researching. We are researching BW. We are very close at this point.

We are not really interested so much in trading for BW as we might be with what you are currently researching. We should share information as to what our future plans are for Tech research so that we don't duplicate research. I'm sure the other teams are thinking of this as well as no one wants to fall behind anyone else in the market of Technology.

I've told you that we are researching BW, had we known you were one of our neighbor's we wouldn't have chose that goal, rather we would have counted on building a strong trading relationship with your team instead. We view the development of a mutually beneficial relationship with you as being desirable.

Please let us know what you are researching and we can start to negotiate for Technologies that we have now for ones that you will have in the future. I will then also share what our plans for the next Tech we will be researching after BW is.

BTW, we researched Pottery first and went for BW immediately afterwards. We are now just few turns from discovering it - as we were lucky with a hut and got 25 gold, we'd consider speeding our research a little bit, buying the "rest" of BW from you, if the price is right. Care to come with a figure?

Has your team had any luck with the Goody Huts? Ours has been a mixed bag. I'll show you ours if you show us yours?

Respectfully bigfree1
Ambassador to the Elucidian Nation

------------------------------------------------

Ok, I've ran it through the 'spell checker' and changed some of the wording as well as Arnold (sorry bout that, the names are just as bad either way )!
I'm going to leave in the 'sauce' part because it reiterates our claims to want to have mutually beneficial relationship. I want them to get warm fuzzies when they read it.

EDIT: Spelling
2nd Edit: Changed sentence as per notyoueither's recommendation below.

Last edited by on 16-03-2003 at 02:55

	16-03-2003 02:45									#69
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Togas I agree, of course. We need not spell things out in explicit detail, just give them a casual run-down of our situation, keep the details fuzzy, and be friendly about it. We're already researching it anyhow, so if they're not going to give us a very discounted price (they probably will if GF has anything to say about it), then thank them, chat it up about future deals ... you research this, we're thinking about researching this and that ... and so forth. Most important thing now is just to make a good impression, get the lines of communication going, and (most importantly) get both of our nations set on different research paths so that we can be assured of future tech swaps. If they're smart they'll pick up the clues and make a couple coins off us now for helping speed our research along. --Togas

Exactly. I hope all the other ambassadors review this thread.

	16-03-2003 02:49									#70
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Ambassador to the Eclucidian Nation

ELUCIDIAN, not Eclucidian

	16-03-2003 02:51									#71
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The only thing I would change, bigfree is 'The likelihood of us have a mutually beneficial relationship throughout this game is very great, I would go so far as to say it's a sure thing' bit. It would look naive if I read that coming from them.

I would view something like 'we view the development of a mutually beneficial relationship with you as being desirable' as being very good, and probably genuine.

	16-03-2003 02:53									#72
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Oh, and the spelling of their name.

What does Togas think?

	16-03-2003 02:53									#73
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The only thing I would change, bigfree is 'The likelihood of us have a mutually beneficial relationship throughout this game is very great, I would go so far as to say it's a sure thing' bit. It would look naive if I read that coming from them. I would view something like 'we view the development of a mutually beneficial relationship with you as being desirable' as being very good, and probably genuine.

That's what I meant by saying it's just sauce and no meat.

nye is right - the current wording is overly friendly and excited.

	16-03-2003 02:56									#74
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I edited it again to reflect a 'less saucy' approach.

	16-03-2003 02:58									#75
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Looks great.

Togas?

	16-03-2003 03:05									#76
	Remove this text

More nitpicking...

"We would like to set up a mutually beneficial Trade arrangement with one of our neighbors."

This line seems to imply something, even if only vaguely...

Either that or it could just sound better.

More like: "We would like to set up a mutually beneficial trade agreement with you."

	16-03-2003 03:09									#77
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Fine with me now.

	16-03-2003 03:11									#78
	Got spare money?

The original was intended to keep them on their toes as to whether or not we have made conact with others. This increases the value of Writing for us. They may think we have contact with a Civ North of us; something they cannot have unless they get Writting, preferably from us.

	16-03-2003 03:12									#79
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Dear Ambassador, We have made contact with your Warrior Arnold. Our nation proposes to establish a mutually beneficial trading relationship with one of our neighbors. I would like to respectfully request that you let us know what you are currently researching. We are currently researching BW and are very close at this point to getting it.

Getting to the point from the beginning. Note that "with one of our neighbors" might imply we already have contact with another civ and might induce CDG to search north.

quote: We are not really interested so much in trading for BW as we might be with what you are currently researching. It is in our common interest that we should share information as to what our future plans are for Tech research so that we don't duplicate research. I'm sure the other teams are thinking of this as well as no one wants to fall behind anyone else in the market of Technology. bla bla bla... ------------------------------------------------ Ok, I've ran it through the 'spell checker' and changed some of the wording as well as Arnold (sorry bout that, the names are just as bad either way )! I'm going to leave in the 'sauce' part because it reiterates our claims to want to have mutually beneficial relationship. I want them to get warm fuzzies when they read it. EDIT: Spelling 2nd Edit: Changed sentence as per notyoueither's recommendation below.

Ok sauce, but not too much sauce. Perhaps by making these slight alterations is enough.

	16-03-2003 03:16									#80
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It should be abundantly apparent to them that it is "In our common interest" to share information. The jest of the statement doesn't change.

	16-03-2003 03:18									#81
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Trip, glad you noticed this too, Apparently I was writing my post while you posted yours and yes, "with one of our neighbours" implies that we have made contact with another civ.

We should consider that this will prompt CDG to perhaps ask if we have made contact with another, since our answer will be no, they may think we are lying. If they think we are lying about this, they may think we are or will lie about other things.

Also, this may prompt CDG to search north, the only likely place the other civ may be found, and if they do, may realize our territory ain't so great.

I am really not so sure if we should say this or not, I would like to hear more comments from the rest of you.

Last edited by Master Zen on 16-03-2003 at 03:24

	16-03-2003 03:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 It should be abundantly apparent to them that it is "In our common interest" to share information. The jest of the statement doesn't change.

It's diplomatic mumbo-jumbo. Diplomacy is all about reafirming the obvious while implying the vague. Everything we do is for OUR interests alone, but of course we wouldn't say that, now would we?

	16-03-2003 03:23									#83
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We don't have to lie about this; we just say that that type of informatioin is classified at the moment. If we want to keep a contact to ourselves, we have the right to do so, even if we don't have one.

	16-03-2003 03:27									#84
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Also, if CDG "thinks" we might have contact with another civ, they will think we will be trading with 2 civs, while they are trading with one, big advantage for us since it will give us an obvious technological edge.

We'll end up being like Alva's old avatar: cat looking like a lion in the mirror.

I say we mess around with CDG a bit with this.

	16-03-2003 03:28									#85
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We have one neighbour. We assume we will have more. It is fine. Time to send it if we want anything accomplished before the next turn.

	16-03-2003 03:40									#86
	Inflate your Upload Space

Message sent. I also posted the mesage in the FA Correspondence thread. Though I think we should have seperate ones for each team in the future.

	16-03-2003 03:42									#87
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I've told you that we are researching BW, had we known you were one of our neighbor's we wouldn't have chosen that goal, rather we would have counted on building a strong trading relationship with your team instead. We view the development of a mutually beneficial relationship with you as being desirable.

If this paragraph is in the final version, please edit as above. Also, contractions should be avoided in formal communications - they are unprofessional and colloquial. Yes, I'm a nit-picker.

Do we need a team grammarian?

	16-03-2003 03:46									#88
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by dejon If this paragraph is in the final version, please edit as above. Also, contractions should be avoided in formal communications - they are unprofessional and colloquial. Yes, I'm a nit-picker. Do we need a team grammarian?

Ideally the ambassor should formulate a "draft" proposal, and that should be edited and reviewed by the Ministry staff.

Or the other way around, the Minsitry writes down the guidelines for negotiation and the ambassador (maybe with a grammar assistant ) writes and presents the final version. This is what happens in real life (of course the amb. has a pretty huge staff)

	16-03-2003 04:51									#89
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I've told you that we are researching BW, had we known you were one of our neighbor's we wouldn't have chosen that goal, rather we would have counted on building a strong trading relationship with your team instead. We view the development of a mutually beneficial relationship with you as being desirable

quote: Originally posted by dejon If this paragraph is in the final version, please edit as above. Also, contractions should be avoided in formal communications - they are unprofessional and colloquial. Yes, I'm a nit-picker. Do we need a team grammarian?

dejon, you quoted this from an earlier draft. You should have looked at the revised version, it does not contain this error. I appreciate you pointing this out though; I'm (or should I say I am, ) not against recieving help/pointers from team members.

	16-03-2003 04:58									#90
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 dejon, you quoted this from an earlier draft. You should have looked at the revised version, it does not contain this error. I appreciate you pointing this out though; I'm (or should I say I am, ) not against recieving help/pointers from team members.

No, I did not. I read the complete thread, and the last post of the message still has "chose", not "chosen".