14-03-2003 11:26									#31
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I agree with Trip that it is much easier to deny access to the North with Cultural boundaries that through Diplomacy.

If we 'ask' then not to go up there, they will likely have suspicions about us and will reflect in their teams' overall view of us. They might ask for some type of 'contribution' in order for them to pass up the opportunity to scout the area. They might just say that they are going up there whether we like it or not using the argument that we have not settled the area and since they are not settling it either, they might as well have a look. There's a 100 reasons why they could just go up there if we don't block they way with a city and it's Cultural borders.

All of the reasons to keep this area unexplored by them make this a top priority in my mind. The less they now about how we are faring up here the better. They could see us as being in a weak position (which we are, right now at least). It would be better for them to attack us with their Immortals sooner rather than latter.

Try looking at this from their perspective; would we attack a Civ we came accross if they looked to be weak and we had Immortals available to us? I know I would. I would take my chances tech trading with the other Civ's and make this 'weak' Civ a Vassal.

I think we should build our 2nd city here:


It gives us Coastal access and would not be a bad location as far as production is concerned. It totally blocks off the North without having to fall back on blocking tactics with units. It is safe and most off all it won't damage any relations with our neighbors. I'll bet there are more than one of them btw. There could even be some bonus tiles that we can't see yet.

I'll admit that a city 2-3-3 or 3-3-3 will be a better overall city in the short term than the one I'm suggesting but it won't alleviate any problems with us wanting to keep others out of our Northern territory. Our 3rd Settler will be ready 4 turns after our 2nd. These 4 turns could mean the difference in blocking the way or not.

BTW, don't some of you wish now that we had built another Warrior?

	14-03-2003 11:27									#32
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I think that we should place facts first, and not bog down our forum in endless discussions based on what if based on 20 turns from now.

I think we should plan our cities based on what is best for our future and adapt that plan to circumstances closer to when it is possible and necessary to do so.

I think you do well in considering the possibilities. I do not discourage you in doing so, but maybe now both you and I should leave off and allow others a chance to catch up and comment. Maybe we're both missing something.

/Edit. Darn X-Posts.

	14-03-2003 11:30									#33
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I like how many posts say "Ask Togas" about the issue of borders and relations.

It has been my experience that human players take crossing into another human player's cultural borders without a "right of passage" as an offensive move and an insulting one as well. Despite any previous agreements or discussions about borders, this seems to be a universally accepted "no no", even with scout units.

However, most players seem to feel that it is perfectly acceptable and normal to go anywhere that is NOT within the cultural borders of a civ ... just like you would in the SP game. This also seems to be some sort of universal truth.

The question: "What are they hiding back there in the F.o.W." is one that always seems to get pondered. Most players like to actively explore and find out. Cut off their ability to explore via borders, units, or agreements and players seem to assume the worst.

I have never seen people assume that a team's hidden tiles are lousey terrain. Our subconscious fears seem to always assume the worst about our neighbors. Especially when you tell your neighbor "we have only swamps and deserts and hills. We have terrible land" they won't believe you unless they've seen every inch of it and verified it for themselves. This is a very favorable negotiation tactic for us, because we can tell the truth and our neighbor can't say we're lieing, can't counter that their terrain is worse, but will always secretly believe we're underselling our homeland.

Having your neighbor in the dark about your actual terrain is exceptionally empowering if for nothing else than the hesitancy that a lack of information causes.

To use a slightly different example, when Spain was negotiating with Neu Dem to establish a permanent border we had very different opinions on where the border should be, and very different arguments. Their argument that they had no land to expand into was impossible for us to rebuff at the time, as we had not seen their rear and most of the northern continent. HOWEVER, they had scouted us out, knew exactly how much land we had, and could easily rebuff us if we said we needed X amount of land. They also had their sights set on aquiring land that held valuable resources and luxuries. We, however, not knowing the full lay of their land, could at best argue to split the "known" luxuries with them ... and could never know if they were hiding a few and holding back on us about what they already had.

Knowledge is very powerful. Lack of knowledge can be crippling.

--Togas

	14-03-2003 11:43									#34
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For all we know they have a Warrior already up N of Apolyton. If they did the smart thing and sent an explorer due north to find contact they could have missed that hut (or even opened it in the last 5 turns) and we wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

	14-03-2003 18:12									#35
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Wacky idea of the day:

How 'bout a military camp at 44 from Apolyton?

More over the weekend.

	14-03-2003 18:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Wacky idea of the day: How 'bout a military camp at 44 from Apolyton? More over the weekend.

I could support that; though I'd like 441 even better since it gives us coastal access and there could be bonus tiles we haven't seen yet and it effectively blocks passage to the North.

	14-03-2003 18:36									#37
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I'm in sort of a rush right now, but I believe site 111 should be our first target (thanks Trip for the graphics). I can see how the other site that Aeson mentions gives more Commerce, but 111 goes further in exerting our influence over this landmass. So its a compromise solution. Plus, given that our Settlers will be produced ~8 turns apart, we will not be losing all that much Commerce is we settle 111 before 223.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 18:45									#38
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I think if you asked any Vox, Roleplay, GoW and ND (if they were allowed in) we would all say the same thing

Players respect the coloured lines. Claiming land not within you cultural borders, or fortifying warriors to stop exploration will upset other teams.

We saw it on Bob, I did it myself in one of my own PBEM's and have spent the entire game trading insults. I am at war with him now...and it all comes back to me telling him to back off because I had an undefended city.

I dont agree with the importance of keeping them from exploring the north, so long as we have checked every tile for goodie huts.

Stick with the game plan...city sites for the future.
Trust in your diplomats to keep the Persians off our back. We would not be their favorite target. We can convince them of that. If we are alone, they will still want us as a trading partner.


And as an important side note :- I am kicking my PBEM opponents ass...As you would expect from any GoW member

	14-03-2003 21:27									#39
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Top priority for city placement should be getting 3 cities along our southern river.

River cities produce a lot of commerce, for lots of gold & science.

	14-03-2003 22:14									#40
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I disagree- our top priority right now should be a production center. Apolyton with its granary should be doing a lot of settler production- let's get a city going to match it with Nummie guards. Remember that as a Commercial society we experience less corruption than others for more cities, and cities at distance- let's take advantage of that! REXing isn't just a SP tactic.

We DO need science and gold- but right now we need a sturdy line of production to base off of... and two solid production centers give us the ability to get more cities (like those needed river cities) built, and just more cities in general- and more cities is always a good thing.

	14-03-2003 22:23									#41
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I think people are ignoring the issue too much. Yes, the alure of "lots of production" or commerce is tempting, but so was the alure to make sure that Lux had horses. A bit different setup, but a similar situation. There is more to worry about than yourself in this game, and I'm hoping this isn't a lesson most of the people have to learn the hard way.

	15-03-2003 01:30									#42
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Trip, what'd you think of 44?

	15-03-2003 01:31									#43
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If it was acceptable for everyone else, I don't see anything wrong with it.

	15-03-2003 01:34									#44
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44 looks like a nice site for a temporary camp, but I fail to see why we should found those first. 111, 223 and 3333 are all sites that should be filled up before we even think about 44. Notice also that 44 shares a Bonus Grassland with Apolyton (and that's about it for good tiles). So our capital is going to be less productive if we want the 44 camp to be even remotely useful (like build a Barracks and Warriors, say).


Dominae

	15-03-2003 01:42									#45
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I suggest we keep this issue on the back burner (but keep the burner on) until we get to our 3rd city. Certainly making our 2nd city a "blocking" city would hurt us more than help, but by the time we are ready to plant #3, we'll know much more about our neighbors, their scouting efforts, and our own position.

	15-03-2003 03:19									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I suggest we keep this issue on the back burner (but keep the burner on) until we get to our 3rd city. Certainly making our 2nd city a "blocking" city would hurt us more than help, but by the time we are ready to plant #3, we'll know much more about our neighbors, their scouting efforts, and our own position.

I fear that it would be too late by then. I hold that preventing any other Civ from scouting up North should be a top priority. They will not be able to correctly assess our situation without having a peak at what we have available. Even if we get them out of there a short time later; since the fog-o-war is gone, they will be able to see any resources pop-up once the required tech is avaiable. Kepping another Civ guessing as to what we are capable of will be one of our greatest assets.

	15-03-2003 03:56									#47
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I seriously doubt they would be able to track down a 1 or 2 tile gap between our new city and the coast in the near future. That's a huge jungle, and they wouldn't know where to go, unless they've already sent a scout into it. As I've said elsewhere, it's my belief that they have plenty of (good) land to the south, and have better things to worry about than a 10 tile thick jungle.

	15-03-2003 04:03									#48
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Well I'm of the mind to believe that they do have at least 3 warrior scouts about since they have yet to build a settler. So scouting through the jungle and finding our Capitol, just as we have found their's is not too far fetched. Keep in mind that we did it with only one scout. Either we were very lucky in finding them or the shape and size of this continent is going to make for some quick contacts.

	15-03-2003 04:06									#49
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Until the goody hut disappears, we shouldn't worry about them.

	15-03-2003 04:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Until the goody hut disappears, we shouldn't worry about them.

It's in the fog-o-war it could already be gone? Or am I mistaken? I think the map only updates in the fog-o-war city palcements and it's cultural boundaries; not Barb encampments or goody huts.

	15-03-2003 04:14									#51
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Yes, that's the problem...

Our next Warrior will be making a bee-line for that hut though...

	15-03-2003 04:16									#52
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Will he be before a Settler or after? (I hope before)

	15-03-2003 04:37									#53
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Going by the plan, after...

This may have changed though, especially considering W1 'BetaHound' fell in battle.

	15-03-2003 04:44									#54
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Poor WBetaHound...what a horrible ending.

I would think that we would need two Warrior's after the Granery; one to pop the hut and possibly deal with Barbs and another to escort the Settler to be built right after.

	15-03-2003 04:47									#55
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2 is ideal, especially considering that the barbs should be wandering by fairly soon. We should probably take this discussion over to the main MoI thread...

	15-03-2003 05:18									#56
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EDIT: post went to the wrong thread... sorry.

	15-03-2003 07:07									#57
	MoW Division of the Jungle Remove this text

This is the best scheme I can come up with for dividing the jungle while working within the plan we've already laid out. We can probably get all of these cities down as long as we keep CDG friendly. It includes 2 cities on the river, and another city covered 2 luxuries and the southern edge of the 'peninsula entrance', so that if that is a peninsula, we'll be able to secure it all for ourselves.

This is just a general outline for the future, and note that I haven't numbered any of the tiles. This is a just "we should do it eventually" image.



What do you guys think?

	15-03-2003 10:04									#58
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I like the top three, and I can see extending that to another town 444 from Apolyton.

* I like that the town 1222 from Apolyton only need one jungle removed for access.

* For the rest, we do not yet know enough.

	15-03-2003 10:08									#59
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Well, a city on or near the "bend" in the continent is a must eventually. First, it blocks access to the east from the southern part of the continent, which is important enough, but it also holds three dyes. Losing such a strategically-placed city would be a huge blow to us.

	15-03-2003 10:24									#60
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like the placement except for the top north/west city. I would aslo vbe concerned as to the order of place ment of these cities. I would assume that placing them in order to block passage east would be a priority over which one's would produce the fastest.

MoI; you can't always have the best producing cities come first without sacraficing valuable land that may become invaluable latter.

I understand the need to get cities that will produce as much as possible, but it must be tempered with consideration for it's tactical placement.