15-03-2003 17:40									#61
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I like the placement except for the top north/west city. I would aslo vbe concerned as to the order of place ment of these cities. I would assume that placing them in order to block passage east would be a priority over which one's would produce the fastest.

You would what?! You're proposing something based on a whole bunch of assumptions there that we don't even know are true, and sacrificing an immediate production center to do it. Blocking access to the east is by NO means assured...

Check out the intelligence thread- Persia has likely made two spears and a warrior at this point. If I were Persia, I sent that first spear a-wandering. Spears are nice, sturdy explorers that aren't like to die at first combat (no offense, RIP, Warrior Betahound) and since the second unit they produced was ALSO a spear, odds are pretty good they left THAT one sitting in the town. (I can't imagine anyone playing SO conservatively that their first two produces were garrisoning spears.) So for all we know, they already sent that spear east long ago and it's halfway to France or whatever by now.

Secondly, we don't know if that's a lake or not east of Persia. We could very easily move one square further south to discover the END of that body of water. What would that leave us? One or two cities where we'd be enjoying our bananas when Persia would drop by on our east and answer our bewildered looks with "Huh? We just walked around our lake. You guys have been in the jungle too long. What are you doing here, anyway?"

Sacrificing productive cities for strategic cities is a good thing when it's certain (And it's not your FIRST productive city, I'm not even going there) but not on massive tactical gambles which could *very* easily not pay off. We need a production center right now, like the one to the west, not a banana harvesting site. If we are that desperate to try and cut off what may very well not be a land bottleneck - and may already be traversed by Persia, very easily - let's at least settle 3-3-2 instead of that godawful Jungle nightmare at 1-2-2-2.

The long term is all fine and good, but if we crawl slowly through the muck moving slowly in the short term, we will find that suddenly with our eyes set high to the future, we are up to our noses in the muck NOW. Even in the long view, rapid expansion is still the best way to victory- and they only thing jungles do rapidly is give you malaria.

	15-03-2003 21:36									#62
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I think for a lake to be saltwater it needs to have 1 tile or more of sea. It might just be a certain number of tiles though. Has anyone ever looked into this?

	15-03-2003 23:22									#63
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On Trip's city placement:

I think the top 2 are our best 2 city sites.

Moving the center city 7 will save us a lot of hassle. It can then use a bonus grassland initially when the top cities don't need/want it, and will allow irrigation to get up to the plains 14 Worker turns earlier. It also bypasses the need to irrigate a bonus grassland that would already have had a mine built on it.

The Dyes city I think would be best moved 7 as well. That gives us a coastal city with a river. ETA on that city is ~1000BC, as we really can't open up a decent tile for it to use before then without shooting ourselves in the foot. CDG has the same problem settling that site, and if they want to compromise the rest of their empire to get to it, we should let them.

	15-03-2003 23:42									#64
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I concur as to the top two being the best. Which one first? I vote for 233.

	15-03-2003 23:55									#65
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I agree. The added commerce is a sure thing.

	16-03-2003 00:27									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon You would what?! You're proposing something based on a whole bunch of assumptions there that we don't even know are true, and sacrificing an immediate production center to do it. Blocking access to the east is by NO means assured... Check out the intelligence thread- Persia has likely made two spears and a warrior at this point. If I were Persia, I sent that first spear a-wandering. Spears are nice, sturdy explorers that aren't like to die at first combat (no offense, RIP, Warrior Betahound) and since the second unit they produced was ALSO a spear, odds are pretty good they left THAT one sitting in the town. (I can't imagine anyone playing SO conservatively that their first two produces were garrisoning spears.) So for all we know, they already sent that spear east long ago and it's halfway to France or whatever by now.

The Intelligence thread isn't likely to be on target as to what units they built; I agree that they probably have built at least three units, but I would suggest that they are more than likely just Warriors. But it is chance as to whether or not they have traveled east aound to the penisula that is South and slightly East of us. Yes, I say that it is a Penisula. See below.

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Secondly, we don't know if that's a lake or not east of Persia. We could very easily move one square further south to discover the END of that body of water. What would that leave us? One or two cities where we'd be enjoying our bananas when Persia would drop by on our east and answer our bewildered looks with "Huh? We just walked around our lake. You guys have been in the jungle too long. What are you doing here, anyway?"

Uh, yes we do know it's not a lake. It was confirmed by Aeson, I think, when someone else also alluded to it as a lake. Since it is not fresh water, I'm of the opinon that East of it is a Peninsula. A mass of land well worth blocking our neighbors from Settling (not exploring as you assumed I meant)

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Sacrificing productive cities for strategic cities is a good thing when it's certain (And it's not your FIRST productive city, I'm not even going there) but not on massive tactical gambles which could *very* easily not pay off. We need a production center right now, like the one to the west, not a banana harvesting site. If we are that desperate to try and cut off what may very well not be a land bottleneck - and may already be traversed by Persia, very easily - let's at least settle 3-3-2 instead of that godawful Jungle nightmare at 1-2-2-2.

Sometimes tactical consideration must outweigh those that would fall under the MoI. I'm not all for cities that don't produce, but if you are given lemons you must make lemonade.

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon The long term is all fine and good, but if we crawl slowly through the muck moving slowly in the short term, we will find that suddenly with our eyes set high to the future, we are up to our noses in the muck NOW. Even in the long view, rapid expansion is still the best way to victory- and they only thing jungles do rapidly is give you malaria.

It's the only land we have so we have to make the best of it now as well as plan into the future. I didn't ask that the very frist city to be placed on the shore of the Ocean South of us; only that it be considered before we fill in the other cities between our first 2 or 3. I would request that it be our 4th city.

	16-03-2003 00:39									#67
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There can be salt water 'lakes'. I'm not sure of the exact conditions, but it does happen. The likelyhood of one on a map with these settings is rather small, but can't be ruled out.

As for the Spears, I'm almost certain of it. At one point in the powergraph (their first unit, our second) they gained on us, half a 'warrior' power jump, which means their unit was 1.5x as powerful as ours. Even popping a unit out of a hut at that date would have given them a full 'warrior' power jump.

	16-03-2003 00:51									#68
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I'm curious about their build, as they've researched Pottery like us means they either have built or are building a Granary right now. This makes it a point of interest as to why they would build Spearman instead of Warriors then go straight to a Granary, but I trust Aeson's judgement on these sorts of number-crunching issues. We should get as much information on this as we can.

That body of water is too big to be a lake. I'm willing to risk the fact that there is no connection between the southern part of the continent and that outcropping. As bigfree said, I think it's worth a risk to build a city there within the near future, especially if we already have 3-4 other good solid production cities.

	16-03-2003 00:56									#69
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Isn't there a whale tail in the water there? I don't know about you guys, but the last time I saw a whale in a lake I was drunk!

	16-03-2003 00:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Isn't there a whale tail in the water there? I don't know about you guys, but the last time I saw a whale in a lake I was drunk!

It's Nessie!

	16-03-2003 02:20									#71
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But our scientists have another hypothesis... It's Willy (I have kids, you know... ). Free him!

	16-03-2003 02:32									#72
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Free him with a city!!

	16-03-2003 02:34									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Free him with a city!!

Now that's a perfectly logical argument!

	16-03-2003 21:38									#74
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It is my opinion that lakes can only be made up of "coastal" tiles, not "sea" tiles.

	11-04-2003 02:28									#75
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Just bumping this.

	02-05-2003 21:18									#76
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*again*

	05-05-2003 04:57									#77
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This needs to be updated, in light of our Iron and horses.

E_T