14-03-2003 08:31									#1
	Ministry of the Interior: City Placement Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The general Ministry of the Interior is getting pretty full right now, and city placement seems to be a hot topic.

Please comment here on where you think our cities should go. I would like everyone's (mostly) unbiased opinions at this point, and the reasons behind them. This way we can be sure we're getting most everyone's input in an informal manner and get some good debate going before I post an official poll on the issue. This poll will go within the next week or so, since our Granary will be done in the near future.

Also comment on the ordering of our cities (which city spot we should go for first, then second, etc.).

Concerning the proximity of our cities: I'm assuming that most people are (at least) supportive of ~3-tile spacing. If you do not agree with this, feel free to comment here, but be aware that this has already been discussed to heck and back in Theseus' "When 'tis nobler to Borg..." thread (sorry if I got the name wrong).

I hope to get a lot of input here. Thanks.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 08:51									#2
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With Togas' (and WhiteBandit's ) backing, I argue that we need a city to block possible exploration of our peninsula by some means.

Blocking exploration means they don't know what we're capable of in the future, which puts us at a diplomatic advantage long-term until Map Making for that reason.

	14-03-2003 08:58									#3
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I believe the Persians (team name?) will figure out that we're not hiding any contacts up North quite fast. And even if they do know that the northern lands are not that great, how will they use that information against us? And how can we use hiding this information against them?

Ideally, I hope to ensure they do not get up North through diplomatic means, until such time as we can reasonably afford to put a city to block the way (around city 6 or so).

Putting a city on the Hill messes things up too much, IMO. We need to chop down more Jungle, irrigate further to get water up North, and we lose three-way access to the Game tile (I mentioned these reasons in another thread). I'm still working on a compromise (economic) solution, but there is not a lot of freedom to work with.


Dominae

	14-03-2003 09:06									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I believe the Persians (team name?) will figure out that we're not hiding any contacts up North quite fast. And even if they do know that the northern lands are not that great, how will they use that information against us? And how can we use hiding this information against them?

Neu Demogyptica attacked Lux because it knew what Lux had. If we can avoid giving a team that advantage, then we put ourselves in a very good position diplomatically. How can we use hiding it against them? First off, they will be very skeptical if it ever comes down to them wanting to attack us. Them having Immortals makes them a very potent civ early on. If they are unaware of our capability of pumping out NMs, then them attacking would be a very great risk.

Ignoring the fact that they might want to go to war with us one day, what would your attitude be towards a team that you knew was pinned between the jungle and desert/mountains with no good land? Pushing them for more favorable deals is a given. Even threatening isn't out of the question.

It comes down to the fact that if we block them now, we can resolve any "can't irrigate/poor production/economic flexibility" problems later. If they get a glimpse at our rear, that can never be fixed.

quote: Ideally, I hope to ensure they do not get up North through diplomatic means, until such time as we can reasonably afford to put a city to block the way (around city 6 or so). Putting a city on the Hill messes things up too much, IMO. We need to chop down more Jungle, irrigate further to get water up North, and we lose three-way access to the Game tile (I mentioned these reasons in another thread). I'm still working on a compromise (economic) solution, but there is not a lot of freedom to work with. Dominae

You can't stop them from passing through unclaimed territory diplomatically without them getting a negative attitude towards you. Ask Togas. Ask any team member from the continent.

Currently I'm working on a compromise that should be acceptable to the hard-liners... if they're willing to realize that stopping them from exploring our land is an imporant issue, and worth resolving in the near future (i.e. before city 5).

	14-03-2003 09:20									#5
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While the pennisula up north may not be strategically important to them, the fact that they know that is the only decent land we have in our immediate vicinity would be detrimental.

With this information, they could know how weak of a position that we are in. It would be far easier to risk attacking us NOW, rather than wait until later.

I really do think we are going to have to run a game of deception for a bit here. We don't want them to realize how crappy of a start position we are actually in.

The ironic thing is that they could possibly be in a worse position than us (our score is greater than theirs) in which case we don't have anything to worry about... if we're the only civs on this continent.

While maximizing production is nice in the long run, we may not have the long run to worry about it. Regardless of what we decide, this early in the game, 2 cities are much better than having none.

	14-03-2003 09:30									#6
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I think I would rather put a city on the plains than on that hill. We are discussing city 3 or 4 here, correct Trip?

That is a minimum of 20 turns from now, if I don't miss my guess.

Then again, it may be possible to prolong a border to the SW by placing city 3 or 4 in a positon more useful. It is too early to tell, and too early to get bogged on whether to disrupt possible city plans by insisting on the hill.

btw, could the possible plans being discussed be linked to here?

	14-03-2003 09:39									#7
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NYE: Yes, I would say that 3rd city is ideal, but 4th would be acceptable as long as we don't see them wandering about.

	14-03-2003 09:41									#8
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So, if it turns out that blocking them is still feasable,ie they have not already gone there, would a city on the plains be OK?

	14-03-2003 09:41									#9
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City 2: 226

- best commerce site we have for quite a while. As good of a production site and food site as any other in our view. I think it makes a few turns difference in our Writing research time to found this one first.

City 3: 111

- like city 2, just without the added commerce.

City 4: 98

- hooks up our luxury (not important for happiness, but will up our score and may lead to us having a more powerful image) and has as much production and food potential as any remaining sites. Upgrades the Incense tile to 2 food, and increase commerce over building on regular desert.

City 5: 777

- just the next best site

	14-03-2003 09:46									#10
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Okay, this is my alternate plan that I offer the MoI.

I'll use Aeson's plan as a base:



In accordance with Dominae's suggestion, I propose that our 2nd city be placed 1-1-1 from Apolyton (city site #2 on the map).

With that having been done (and we know that they're scouting about) our 3rd city should be placed 1 (south-west) from proposed city site #4. If we know they have no intentions of scouting the jungle, then the city site 1 (south-west) from #4 could be delayed to the fourth city we build, but no later than that.
In turn, the city site located at spot #3 would be shifted 7 (north-west).

Edit: Changed the wording to help in understanding what I was saying.

Last edited by Trip on 14-03-2003 at 10:07

	14-03-2003 10:15									#11
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This would leave us with the territory as follows:

	14-03-2003 10:20									#12
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Actually, the desert city 7 7 7 likely cuts off the north as well.

	14-03-2003 10:21									#13
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nevermind.

	14-03-2003 10:23									#14
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No. The tile 4 of the city site I propose is plains, and that tile is outside of the border if we placed a city 7-7-7. In the map I showed, you can see the "shield" on the map in that tile, which definitively shows that it's land.

	14-03-2003 10:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither nevermind.

NYE, you should know better than to post before you can check things. Unfortunately, I officially have no life, meaning I spot every new post within about 30 seconds of it getting down.

	14-03-2003 10:26									#16
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Your graphics threw me, it looked like 7 7 4 4 was coast to me. Then I thought that was wrong and opened the save. Good thing I did.

	14-03-2003 10:29									#17
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At any rate, a city at 7 7 7 and a fortified warrior at 7 7 4 4 accomplishes the block, without compromising potentially optimised city grids.

	14-03-2003 10:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither At any rate, a city at 7 7 7 and a fortified warrior at 7 7 4 4 accomplishes the block, without compromising potentially optimised city grids.

And it also tells them "we don't want you up here, and we've put this Warrior here for the express purpose of preventing you from coming up here."

	14-03-2003 10:39									#19
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And? ...

	14-03-2003 10:40									#20
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By the way, in what ways are the grids compromised? I can see a tile or two that would be altered, but in no way are they rendered useless (at least, no more so than the way they started...).

	14-03-2003 10:41									#21
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And? ...

As I repeated many a time over again, it's not good for making friends. Vox and GS didn't have to deal with this because of a quick and definitive border treaty, but it was certainly a problem on the continent.

	14-03-2003 10:44									#22
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So, some team is going to be displeased because we are controlling movement within 3 or 4 tiles of our capitol?

I think most people would get over it.

	14-03-2003 10:46									#23
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It might encourage them to walk through our borders instead. Keep in mind here, we're dealing with GhengisFarb. No matter how much influence he may hold, all of the rumors you may have heard about him are probably true.

	14-03-2003 10:51									#24
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So which is it, Trip? Borders are important, or they are not?

	14-03-2003 10:55									#25
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We forfeit 1 food by building on plains instead of Desert. That basically means we lose one usable tile because a 1 food tile stops growth with it's partner, while another 2 food tile allows the 2 1 food tiles to come at higher pop. In the 150 or so turns leading up to Railroads (judging by the PTWDG tech rate), that's a lot of waste.

Say 150 shields, 300 commerce. Corruption would lower the shields and commerce numbers, but Republic will boost commerce when we get to it and lower corruption, and we'll probably trigger our GA before then too, and that helps with any lost shields and commerce too.

	14-03-2003 11:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither So which is it, Trip? Borders are important, or they are not?

GF is very prone to provocation. I'm sure Togas will have quite a few stories about that for you. If he gets upset, then we'll know it. I'm sure his team will place a fair amount of trust in his judgement, if only for the fact that he has the most DG experience out of all of them.

	14-03-2003 11:11									#27
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Trip, GF joined their team late. They have their own players and it is unlikely that GF is a mover and shaker over there. He is also feeding them misleading information. Soren has had zero input on GS, but he thinks that is not the case and has stated it. Please don't get too wrapped up in the PTW demo game. This is a beast of a different colour.

	14-03-2003 11:14									#28
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Eh, the thing I think we are gambling too much on is GhengisFarb. DON'T build a whole plan or disregard a whole plan on whether or not GF might act a certain way. We don't even know to what capacity he is in control on the other team... if any.

I don't think having a warrior blocking as well would be too much of a problem. If they are going to go to war over something as stupid as that, well then we're going to set them off undoubtably in some way.

Why do we not send a settler up that way to colonize the pennisula? There is some decent land up there in anycase and we wouldn't have to worry about the whole "blocking" plan. Besides, some foreign civ could possibly swoop down and take it (without knowing we're there) while we are too busy making sure a scouting party doesn't get by our city.

So yeah. I think we should block, but I think we should utilize what we're blocking ASAP. (Depending on how valuable that land is to us of course.) Though now that I think about it, we're manly blocking them so that they do not know how crappy of a position we actually have. This will probably be a moot point after we have some more cities placed.

	14-03-2003 11:17									#29
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Trip, GF joined their team late. They have their own players and it is unlikely that GF is a mover and shaker over there. He is also feeding them misleading information. Soren has had zero input on GS, but he thinks that is not the case and has stated it. Please don't get too wrapped up in the PTW demo game. This is a beast of a different colour.

Do you want me to bow and accept, or look for potential loopholes in our strategy? Playing devil's advocate or not, we have to consider every possibility.

	14-03-2003 11:20									#30
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Eh, the thing I think we are gambling too much on is GhengisFarb. DON'T build a whole plan or disregard a whole plan on whether or not GF might act a certain way. We don't even know to what capacity he is in control on the other team... if any. I don't think having a warrior blocking as well would be too much of a problem. If they are going to go to war over something as stupid as that, well then we're going to set them off undoubtably in some way. Why do we not send a settler up that way to colonize the pennisula? There is some decent land up there in anycase and we wouldn't have to worry about the whole "blocking" plan. Besides, some foreign civ could possibly swoop down and take it (without knowing we're there) while we are too busy making sure a scouting party doesn't get by our city. So yeah. I think we should block, but I think we should utilize what we're blocking ASAP. (Depending on how valuable that land is to us of course.) Though now that I think about it, we're manly blocking them so that they do not know how crappy of a position we actually have. This will probably be a moot point after we have some more cities placed.

Whether or not GF has any bearing on the team, blocking movement in neutral territory is not viewed as a "friendly" move by anyone, and can often be seen as a "hostile" action by many. This lead to quite a bit of double-dealing in the PTW DG, and teams looking for alternatives to get certain techs, etc...

Luckily, we have time to judge the situation. We will not have to face this, even at the soonest, for another 3 weeks.

And on that note, I'm going to sleep.