16-03-2003 12:23									#1
	Thoughts on the response from Persians(CDG) Put an end to popups!

Recieved in my PM box here at Apolyton on Saturday, March 15th, 2003 17:09

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Greetings from CDG,
As mentioned our appointed ambassador to your nation, GhengisFarb, is currently away for a few days. On his return he will doubtless be in contact to start helping to build a hopefully strong relationship with your nation.

As President of Elucidia, I take great pleasure in the news that you are our neighbours, and I look forward to developing strong trade ties with Apolyton. Unfortunately our current trade options are severely limited as it seems both our nations followed pretty much the same research paths. We of course started with Masonry and Bronze Working and firstly developed Pottery before moving on to our current project, Alphabet.

It seems the only difference between us right now is we have BW and you have Alphabet, its a pity we didnt meet earlier so we could have arranged to deviate from our tech paths. We would be extremely interested in following such a course of action from this point on as you suggested. Our next tech project will be Iron Working which we should be starting shortly. We would be pleased if you would reciprocate by informing us of your next project so we can plan a tech path for the longer term that does not collide with yours.

Re goodie huts we have had also had a cash one and another one so far. Got a few more to check out though so hopefully we'll get lucky.

Finally, as a sign of goodwill towards yourselves we will be moving back our exploring warrior who is currently just south of your city. We would see it as a much appreciated reciprocation if you would do the same with your warrior.

Hope to speak with your good selves again soon, and heres hoping for a long and rewarding relationship with your great nation.

Yours Sincerely,

Kentonio
President of Elucidia

	16-03-2003 12:59									#2
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Bluff, and bluff.

Let them finish Alphabet.

Warrior south of our city? I guess they love jungle.

---

What should we research if not IW? We can afford to take them on this word. BW will give us what we need badly.

	16-03-2003 13:20									#3
	Remove this text

Hmmm... agreed, sounds like obvious bluffing to me, too. They are indirectly suggesting a deal "rest of BW for the rest of Alphabet". Persians researching Alphabet, that is a starting tech to THREE other civs in this game, right after Pottery would be a very strange beast. Would be a very stupid beast, IMHO.

Either they are very foolish or they are trying to be very smart. I would suggest to "regretfully see no ways to trade technologies ATM".

As for the warrior, we'll be wiser when we get the save. But it does sound strange that they could be so close (close enough to know they are near our capital - the explorer would have to be a spear... and considering how long it must have taken to build it, he would have to head directly for Apolyton. Highly unlikely - they had more promising directions to explore in. I would tell them politely that we do not intend to harrass their chicken and/or woman and are just passing by on our way to southern lands.

	16-03-2003 13:37									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Yep, lets bypass the tech trade. Tell them that we have no intention of approaching their borders, and we plan on continuing our exploration south. We welcome them to continue exploring our territory but we expect the same courtesy of steering clear of our borders.

	16-03-2003 13:50									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by vondrack I would tell them politely that we do not intend to harrass their chicken and/or woman and are just passing by on our way to southern lands.

Does that mean that we are not chicken (f)ucker's?

It sounds a little off to me too. When I first contacted him asking him for a way to contact his Ambassador to Apoloyon, he didn't react in a way that would lead you to believe that:

1. He saw our border.

2. Contact was imminent.

This is what he wrote:

quote: Hi, your ambassador to Apolytonm is GenghisFarb, although if by chance we met in the next few days while he is away I would be dealing with any early contact. Kentonio

I think we should make a token offer for BW, maybe 20 gold and see what happens. We might also let them know that we were planning on Writting as well, but ask them why they didn't go for IW(worded that we were sort of wondering), THE most important Tech for Persia?

We tried being honest, maybe they think we are flat out lying/bluffing also. That would explain why they would lie in return (if they are lying.) They might think we are trying to get BW for real cheap (like we did little or no research on it.) If they don't want to sell it to us at a price reasonable to us, then we finish it in 7 turns and then show them that we indeed were researching it. We won't state it like they didn't believe us but rather when they open the diplo screen they will see that we have it, and come to their own conclusion; "Hey, they were telling the truth."

Do we or do we not mention anything about the Northern territory being off limits to them. I don't think we should say anything now about this.

They seem to be ok with us taking our warrior south, though they want us away from their border by one tile right now. If there's no Civ South/East of us; there will be one South of Persia (IMO). They may even have contact already and that's why they are going for Writting (logical next step from Alphabet) so soon. Contact with another Civ is a very tradable commodity.

	16-03-2003 14:14									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Don't write off the chance to get BW early yet ... Ghengis Farb, our official contact, may be a bit wiser. These guys appear to be bluffing a bit to me.

However, with every turn that passes the idea of buying BW becomes less and less appealing. Give it another push on Monday to see if GF will understand where we're coming from ... "We're X turns from getting BW, but if you guys want to sell it to us, we'd be willing to pay you for the beakers we're 'missing'. We figure it'll help us start on a new tech sooner and give you guys some gold ... a win-win situation for us both."

Let them know what our next tech will be (Writing?) and casually inquire why they're not going IW sooner. Seems rather unusual to go this route ... ask them why they decided to do it.

Never be afraid of asking questions so long as you're not afraid to answer them yourself. In our case, the answer of what we researched is obvious. In theirs ... well, I'd like to entertain their explainations.

Oh, and let them know that we will move away from their border and be on our merry way. Thank them for doing the same with us.

--Togas

	16-03-2003 14:52									#7
	First Draft of 2nd response to CDG Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As was said earlier about my first response, this one too, is a little 'saucy'; but what kind of diplomat doesn't have more sauce than meat? Now don't go cracking any jokes about my meat!
This is a rough draft, please feel free to make suggestions to additions and deletions.
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Greetings from the land of Apolyton

We were also sorry to hear that our paths so closely matched each others. Hopefully this won’t happen as much, now that we will be working together to better achieve both of our Civ’s research needs and goals.

We were planning on Writing after we finished BW (in about 6 turns); now that you say you are going after Writing that leaves us with a few other choices. Our team will have to debate as to what we will research next. We will have to do this all over again as this was already debated pretty heavily over here when we chose Writing.

Some of our team members were wondering why Persia wasn’t seeking IW since they already had the prerequisite Tech. To most on our team it seemed a foregone conclusion that a Persian Civ without Iron isn’t exactly Persia! Would you care to enlighten these fellows a bit?

You didn’t come back with a figure on the amount you’d consider for helping us out with BW. We're very close to getting BW ourselves, but if you guys want to sell it to us, we'd be willing to pay you for the beakers we're 'missing'. We figure it'll help us start on a new tech sooner and give you guys some gold ... a win-win situation for us both.

Thank you for offering to move back your Warrior from our Capitol, though we haven’t seen him. What’s his name anyways? We like name you gave Arnold. We plan to move our warrior, bigfree, south and away from your border as requested, we do so out of mutual respect for each others borders. Respecting ones borders will go far with our team.

Respectfully
bigfree1
Apolytonian Ambassador

	16-03-2003 16:02									#8
	Tired of ads?

I would not mention the number of turns to the discovery of BW... just use "close to" (not even "very close", if it was me... but then, I am usually woefully honest ) since that is a lie then can easily disclose. The reality is 10 turns and if they do not accept the deal, then they will find out we lied to them.

Other than that, the response is fine with me. Also, the spelling improved notably...

	16-03-2003 17:51									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I have a couple of questions. First, if they have a unit just south of us, how come we never met it on our way to them? Assuming that they have no access to the land to the east of the water (at this point it look like it would have been a fairly long trip for their unit even if they could), their only other way to miss us is if they were NW of us. If that is the case,why not pop the hut? They would have had to see it. I have feelings this is a bluff too, for these reasons and the fact that if Aeson is correct and they have 2 spear and a warrior and the first spear forted, why send the 2nd spear into the jungle without looking in other directions first?

	16-03-2003 18:21									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: We were are also sorry to hear that our paths so closely matched each others. Hopefully this won’t happen as much, now that we will be working together to better achieve both of our Civ’s Civs' research needs and goals.

	16-03-2003 18:31									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Has anyone considered the idea of getting rid of all the sauce and being very blunt? Something like:

quote: Cut the bullshit, we know you're researching Iron Working. And you don't have a warrior South of our city either. Now do you want to tell us the truth so we can trade with each other, or lie so we never get anywhere?

	16-03-2003 19:42									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The "warrior south of your city" bit could be a ploy to get us to confirm what direction we are from them. And I suspect that they are lying about Alphabet, in an attempt to facilitate a "missing beakers for missing beakers" trade for BW, in which they would actually get a free tech, since I very much doubt they are not researching IW.

	16-03-2003 19:51									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Has anyone considered the idea of getting rid of all the sauce and being very blunt? Something like: quote: Cut the bullshit, we know you're researching Iron Working. And you don't have a warrior South of our city either. Now do you want to tell us the truth so we can trade with each other, or lie so we never get anywhere?

I agree with everyone else here. They're being quite silly with their diplomacy. They shouldn't have been so sloppy and gotten themselves into a pair of lies they won't be able to escape from.

CD is right. We went straight south with our unit, so it is, for all intents and purposes, nearly impossible for them to have found us already.

Vondrack: I think we're 6/7 turns from BW actually. Mentioning the turn number may actually work for us here.

Good job on this message bigfree, much more refined than your first. We may want to change the part about "pay you for the beakers we're missing," because that implies that we will pay them in full, which is about twice as much as we're willing to pay. We should be straight up and offer them 20 gold for it now. If they refuse, then that's how things are. If not, then great, we can get started on Writing. The longer we negotiate a deal, the more we lose. It's either now or never. We shouldn't be dragged into lengthy and purposeless diplomacy if they're not willing to work with us here. We have an agenda and if they're not willing to work with it, then we can keep moving.

	16-03-2003 22:30									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan I have a couple of questions. First, if they have a unit just south of us, how come we never met it on our way to them? Assuming that they have no access to the land to the east of the water (at this point it look like it would have been a fairly long trip for their unit even if they could), their only other way to miss us is if they were NW of us. If that is the case,why not pop the hut? They would have had to see it. I have feelings this is a bluff too, for these reasons and the fact that if Aeson is correct and they have 2 spear and a warrior and the first spear forted, why send the 2nd spear into the jungle without looking in other directions first?

With the path that we had taken through the Jungle, I am not at all surprised that we missed the CDG Unit. What is interesting is to know how long they have been outside our field of view.

Also, how close are they to getting that Goody Hut that is to the west of Apolyton?

E_T

	16-03-2003 22:37									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A few observations:

• They do not know for sure how close we are to BW. We do not know for sure what they are researching, or how close they are to it. Trading tech-for-tech under these circumstances is like playing in a casino. Better make them an offer with Gold Pieces on one side of the equation. Keep in mind that Alphabet is a very valuable tech, since it leads to Writing (embassies, contacts) and Writing leads to MapMaking (exploration for other civs).
  
• Having said the above, going for Alphabet is not a very bad thing to do for them. Especially if you keep in mind that GF might use 'unusual' tactics, as mentioned somewhere else. If they are not lying, their research time just dropped by making contact with us.
  
• If they are right, how far could they have developed Alphabet at this point? It is more expensive (in terms of beaker cost) than BW.
  
• They seem to act "silly" diplomacy-wise. They might be lying, even. Just ignore that for now, and try to get more information from them. If they are lying at this moment, there will come a point at which we can tell they are lying, because they will either contradict themselves or contradict the facts.
  
• Please - if you quote times and/or dates, let us know in what time zone you are...!
  
• They seem to not have a Minister of Grammar.
  
• If they are right about having a warrior south of our city, they must have seen our borders. That means that they must have been adjacent to the border, or used a mountain or such. They cannot have passed Warrior Bigfree in this process without being spotted.

	16-03-2003 23:02									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Togas Let them know what our next tech will be (Writing?) and casually inquire why they're not going IW sooner. Seems rather unusual to go this route ... ask them why they decided to do it. --Togas

I have a hunch, but it could be entirely wrong. 2 seneriaos

#1
They have likely sent out 3 scouts (West, North & South)
THey have found that this looks to be an island
They set their research to get themselves closer to Map Making and feel that they can wait a bit for IW.

#2
Same set of scouts.
THey have found someone else and have a tech agreement with them.
THey set their research to get closer to Liturature, as their Libraries are cheaper.

Or a combination of the above 2.

E_T

	16-03-2003 23:52									#17
	Re: First Draft of 2nd response to CDG Enter the AD-FREE zone

Bigfree,

Your letter is very good. I'd only make a couple of changes and none of them are "critical". My changes in bold:

oh, and I removed that line about liking the name Arnold.

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings from the land of Apolyton We were also sorry to hear that our paths so closely matched each others. Hopefully this won’t happen as much, now that we will be working together to better achieve both of our Civ’s research needs and goals. We were planning on Writing after we finished BW (in about 6 turns); now that you say you are going after Writing that leaves us with a few other choices. Our team may have to debate as to what we will research next. We would have to do this all over again as this was already debated pretty heavily over here when we chose Writing. Some of our team members were wondering why Persia wasn’t seeking IW since they already had the prerequisite Tech. To most on our team it seemed a foregone conclusion that a Persian Civ without Iron isn’t exactly Persia! Would you care to enlighten these fellows a bit? You didn’t come back with a figure on the amount you’d consider for helping us out with BW. We're very close to getting BW ourselves, but if you guys want to sell it to us, we'd be willing to pay you for the beakers we're 'missing'. We'd be willing to pay you 15g to help us get it sooner. We figure it'll help us start on a new tech right away and give you guys some gold ... a win-win situation for us both. Thank you for offering to move back your Warrior from our Capitol, though we haven’t seen him. What’s his name anyways? We plan to move our warrior, bigfree, south and away from your border as requested, we do so out of mutual respect for each others borders. Respecting ones borders will go far with our team. Respectfully bigfree1 Apolytonian Ambassador

--Togas

	17-03-2003 00:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I have a hunch, but it could be entirely wrong. 2 seneriaos #1 They have likely sent out 3 scouts (West, North & South) THey have found that this looks to be an island They set their research to get themselves closer to Map Making and feel that they can wait a bit for IW. #2 Same set of scouts. THey have found someone else and have a tech agreement with them. THey set their research to get closer to Liturature, as their Libraries are cheaper. Or a combination of the above 2. E_T

If I were persia I would've started with Iron Working for two reasons:

1) obviously the UU
2) the earlier they get IW, the earlier they will find out where Iron is and can base their expansion on that route. Why would they go to all the troubles of going to MapMaking when by then another civ could've gotten to iron before they did? Still, I have a feeling CDG's terrain ain't that hilly. If anything, we'll get iron from our hills up north.

	17-03-2003 00:57									#19
	Tired of ads?

Thank you for offering to move back your Warrior from our Capitol, though we haven’t seen him

This would seem to confirm we are from the north, and might be just what he was fishing for. We could very well be from east of them.

Something like 'we appreciate your position on borders and will respect them. We appreciate your willingness to respect our borders when you find them.'

	17-03-2003 01:21									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Thank you for offering to move back your Warrior from our Capitol, though we haven’t seen him This would seem to confirm we are from the north, and might be just what he was fishing for. We could very well be from east of them. Something like 'we appreciate your position on borders and will respect them. We appreciate your willingness to respect our borders when you find them.'

I thought the part of though we haven't seen him might suggest that we doubt they even have a unit close to our border's without calling them a liar.

	17-03-2003 01:26									#21
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Yes, but it implies that they may be find out we're north of them because they said they'd be moving south from our city, so I agree with NYE.

	17-03-2003 01:35									#22
	Tired of ads?

BTW, we don't have to really hurry with our response; the German Webring Team still hasn't recieved their turn. I guess Fanatika (CFC) is having problems with it's mail server. It's been 24 hours since they first reported sending it to the GWT; it's "still none there " according to the GWT.

	17-03-2003 01:53									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Try to catch them in their lies, but never give away any additional information (like we're north of them)

	17-03-2003 02:51									#24
	Re: First Draft of 2nd response to CDG Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

2nd draft
I thought I should add in a little 'bite' to this one since they seem to be a little less than trustworthy and to let them know in a round about way that we may think that. Again, thoughts and ideas will be appreciated. I'm glad this has turned into a 'team' oriented endeavor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings from the land of Apolyton

We are also sorry to hear that our paths so closely matched each others. Hopefully this won’t happen as much, now that we will be working together to better achieve both of our Civs' research needs and goals.

We were planning on Writing after we finished BW (pretty soon); now that you say you are going after Writing that leaves us with a few other choices. Our team may have to debate as to what we will research next. We would have to do this all over again as this was already debated pretty heavily over here when we chose Writing.

Some of our team members were wondering why Persia wasn’t seeking IW since they already had the prerequisite Tech. To most on our team it seemed a foregone conclusion that a Persian Civ without Iron isn’t exactly Persia! Would you care to enlighten these fellows a bit?

You didn’t come back with a figure on the amount you’d consider for helping us out with BW. We're very close to getting BW ourselves, but if you guys want to sell it to us, we'd be willing to pay you for the beakers we're 'missing'. We'd be willing to pay you 15g to help us get it sooner. We figure it'll help us start on a new tech sooner and give you guys some gold ... a win-win situation for us both.

Thank you for offering to respect our borders, but frankly, we haven't seen any of your troops besides Arnold. What’s this wondering units name anyways? We plan to move our warrior, Bigfree, south and away from your border as requested, we do so out of mutual respect for each others borders. Respecting ones borders will go far with our team.

Respectfully
bigfree1
Apolytonian Ambassador

	17-03-2003 03:15									#25
	Re: Re: First Draft of 2nd response to CDG Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Thank you for offering to respect our borders, but frankly, we haven't seen any of your troops besides Arnold. What’s this wondering units name anyways? We plan to move our warrior, Bigfree, south and away from your border as requested, we do so out of mutual respect for each others borders. Respecting ones borders will go far with our team. Respectfully bigfree1 Apolytonian Ambassador

slight correction:

"what's this wandering unit's name anyways?"

	17-03-2003 03:19									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

Perhaps the reason they're not researching IW is that their territory has hardly a hill or mountain? From what I've seen of the map it's one big jungle out there.

	17-03-2003 03:31									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I thought I saw in their response that Iron Working was going to be their next tech after Alphabet btw.

quote: It seems the only difference between us right now is we have BW and you have Alphabet, its a pity we didnt meet earlier so we could have arranged to deviate from our tech paths. We would be extremely interested in following such a course of action from this point on as you suggested. Our next tech project will be Iron Working which we should be starting shortly. We would be pleased if you would reciprocate by informing us of your next project so we can plan a tech path for the longer term that does not collide with yours.

Does seem odd that they would go for Alphabet first when they could have a decent chance of trading for it - maybe because they are a scientific civ and they want to get close to Literature more quickly.

	17-03-2003 03:33									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Perhaps the reason they're not researching IW is that their territory has hardly a hill or mountain? From what I've seen of the map it's one big jungle out there.

Ther are two hills just East of their Capitol and a couple of possibilities of Iron deposits in the jungle. So for them to completely dismiss the possibility of having Iron is too farfetched for me to believe. Persia isn't Persia without Iron; they will do anything to secure it. That means that they need to find it first which of cousre means that they will research full steam towards it. I don't ever remember a team having not done that in MP.

I do give it about a 10% chance of it being the case that they are not going for IW now if the've already made contact with another Civ who has BW as their start Tech and went imediately to IW at the beggining of the game. Thus they have already made a trade 'pact' with another team to aquire IW for Alphabet. It's a slim possibility at best, but one we might consider if we see another team close by down South of the Persians

	17-03-2003 03:34									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Don't send anything yet.

Togas, NYE and myself are talking with them right now in a chatroom.

	17-03-2003 03:41									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Beat me to it, Sharpe.

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 We might also let them know that we were planning on Writting as well, but ask them why they didn't go for IW(worded that we were sort of wondering), THE most important Tech for Persia?

As seen here, bigfree was the first to confuse their researching of Alphabet for Writing. Everyone, please read diplomatic communiques carefully. Also, while "reading between the lines is encouraged", if we include any of our speculation in official messages, we risk creating a diplomatic conflict, as happened a few times in the PtWDG.