17-03-2003 03:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by orange Viceroy - what about a vote of no confidence? Is it possible? Is it likely?

A vote of no confidence won't work - one passed with a majority against John Howard who is for the war and he IGNORED IT COMPLETELY

	17-03-2003 03:19									#32
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Dean's the only candidate who can unite the various wings of the Democratic Party. Unfortunately, he's already stated he's going to stop his criticism of the war once bombs start falling. Even he doesn't have any guts.

Traditionally, massive protests during wartime have led to a blurring of the line between "war" and "Servicemen" during protests.

So, yeah, I really hope the protests tone down once the bombs start falling. Even more so once coalition troops are traveling through Iraqi streets with the locals screaming "Boosh! Boosh!"

	17-03-2003 03:29									#33
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Sadly, they are going to get away with this, at least in the short term. Two criminals stealing another criminal's oil, with thousands of people dying in between.

	17-03-2003 03:33									#34
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To those who know, are all the Democrats against disarming Saddam - er, let's put that differently -- in favor of appeasement? Give him more time with no threat of force? That sort of thing?

	17-03-2003 03:47									#35
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Good question, Ned.

Are all Republicans in favor of extending the Monroe doctrine globally and applying Teddy Roosevelt's "big stick" policies anywhere in the world that doesn't do the US's bidding?

"Appeasement" would imply Saddam is demanding something. The only "appeasing" going on is appeashing Bush.

	17-03-2003 03:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Even more so once coalition troops are traveling through Iraqi streets with the locals screaming "Boosh! Boosh!"

Yeah, they're already pretty well trained at lining the streets on command, calling out the name of whichever thug controls the guys with all the guns.

	17-03-2003 03:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yeah, they're already pretty well trained at lining the streets on command, calling out the name of whichever thug controls the guys with all the guns.

You're killing the moment here...

	17-03-2003 03:57									#38
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Back before the first one really got started, I remember there was some footage about some ******* in Baghdad badgering a reporter, and when the reporter asked his name, he said "I um Saddam Hussein. We ur alllll Saddam Hussein."

Crudely staged, but hilarious, in that dark sort of humor you get out in the desert. I wonder if they'll find the same guy to say "I um George Boosh. We ur alllll George Boosh."

	17-03-2003 04:04									#39
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I was refering to the liberationg of Kuwait, when the streets were lined with the locals scream "We love you Boosh!"

	17-03-2003 05:44									#40
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quote: Originally posted by orange Viceroy - what about a vote of no confidence? Is it possible? Is it likely?

Would be very near impossible to achieve, as the Tories would likely vote for the government in such an event. In the votes on the UK's policy on Iraq, a majority of Labour delegates supported the government. Blair is safe, as elections are not until 2006.

	17-03-2003 06:04									#41
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Well the tories rule in the UK whether they win the elections or not... what a country... the new Labour is really the old Tories... UK is stuck in the past as usual...

	17-03-2003 06:12									#42
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Well it looks like it is going to be a case of 'Kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out'

	17-03-2003 06:57									#43
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Watching Bush and Blair on TV was a big difference from reading about the news conference. It's more obious that there will be no more diplomacy. Monday is it.

	17-03-2003 07:15									#44
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So, GWB made another silly attempt at trying to dictate his terms to the rest of the world.

	17-03-2003 10:06									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Both he and Kerry, the other anti-war Democrat who has a chance, both feel that it is wrong to criticise on-going wars, even though that's how Kerry himself first came to prominence, being one of the leaders of Vietnam Vets Against the War.

Properly so. The only way you can criticize an on-going war is if it's on-going. Iraq is no Vietnam, and if there's a political settlement of the the thing to be had once the shooting starts, the Iraqi leaders (many of whom know their only future is death in combat, or death in front of a wall when the new government gets ahold of them) will guage apparent world and US political opinion to determine what they should try to bargain for, and for how long they'll try to hold out. If they think that they can string things along, rack up body count (their civilians or our soldiers), and squeak out intact with a political victory, they'll keep getting people killed to save themselves.

quote: They're still thinking that America sees them as untrustworthy on defense, when the problem is that America sees them as willing to say anything to get elected and not ready stand for anything (though, of course, Georgia did toss that wounded vet for being opposed to Bush's war-mongering).

No, they're thinking that undermining the political policy will prolong the war, and kill more people on both sides, and they're likely right. There will be plenty of time to criticize Bush after the war, and if by some bizarre chance it drags on, then the assessment of whether to criticize administration policy can be reassessed.

quote: Thus they let draft-dogers like Bush make them seem like cowards.

Realists, not cowards.

	17-03-2003 10:58									#46
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Come on, MtG, the Democrats are gung on on submitting US foreign policy to the UN. But now that the French have show us their cards, I can hardly imagine anyone making a case to the America people that we have to get UN approval in the future because we all know that France will intentionally obstruct US policy.

During the cold war, no one, Democrat or Republican, ever argued that we would have to get critical decisions approved by the SC knowing that all that would mean would be a Russian and probably a Chinese veto. No, we knew we had to act through NATO or other alliances.

Now that France has revealed her true anti-American intentions, we cannot go to the UN SC for anything. France will block us.

The Democrats must know this.

So, what are they saying about the UN? I have heard nary a word from any Democrat in the last few weeks.

	17-03-2003 11:01									#47
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I think it's ok to protest war during the war if you feel that it's the right thing to do. The protesters during the Vietnam War had a long term effect on US foreign policy. I think we became a little less aggresive because of their actions. If there is significant protests again then warmongering presidents will think twice next time. .... maybe.

	17-03-2003 11:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now that France has revealed her true anti-American intentions, we cannot go to the UN SC for anything. France will block us.

Not that the US has been blocking resolutions not favorable to itself

	17-03-2003 17:37									#49
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Shi Huangdi is correct, any vote of no-confidence would not work.

Even the vast majority of anti-war Labour MP's know they are there due to Tony, and they won't drop him until they feel there is a credible threat, and a credible alternative.

Remember, a vote of no-confidence would bring the government down, not Tony .. and the vast majority of MP's are not going to put their job on the line.

A Leadership challenge (as with M.Thatcher) is possible, but just too early. Again, who is the credible alternative ??? Gordon Brown supports the war .. infact, all of the majour hitters do, apart from Robin Cook and Clair Short, and neither of them have it in them to be a PM.

Blair will get through this war .. and by the next election, will return as Prime Minister for a 3rd term .. The only things i can see that will stop this are :-

1)Tories dumping IDS and getting Kenneth Clarke in (and not squabling .. which may not be possible)

2) Massive Economic downturn in wake of war.

3) War goes dreadfully wrong, and thousands of Brits/Americans are killed (even US casualties would be bad for Blair, as if the US public turn against the war, he will find it harder and harder to justify).

my bets on 3rd term currently.

	17-03-2003 18:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not that the US has been blocking resolutions not favorable to itself

UR, what does this have to do with anything. Why do all you extreme lefties always try to change the subject and attack the US?

Example: Saddam is a dictator that should be removed:
Lefties: The US has supported many a dictator in the past.

Example: Saddam has violated X UN resolutions.
Lefties: Israel has violated more.

Example: Saddam has WoMD and is a threat.
Lefties: Israel has nukes and is a threat.

Never address the issue. Simply attack the US and Israel.

	17-03-2003 18:19									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Example: Saddam is a dictator that should be removed: Lefties: The US has supported many a dictator in the past. Example: Saddam has violated X UN resolutions. Lefties: Israel has violated more. Example: Saddam has WoMD and is a threat. Lefties: Israel has nukes and is a threat.

If you mean: Saddam shoul be removed BECAUSE is a dictator you imply that EVERY dictator should be removed.

If you mean: Saddam shoul be removed BECAUSE he has violated X UN resolutions you imply that EVERY country violating UN resolution should be punished.


This is LOGIC and it's not a matter of opinion.

	17-03-2003 18:22									#52
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Now the inspectors have been "urged" to leave Iraq. Clear the decks... here we come...

I really hope civilian casualties can be kept to a minimum. The Iraqi people have suffered enough.

	17-03-2003 18:38									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth If you mean: Saddam shoul be removed BECAUSE is a dictator you imply that EVERY dictator should be removed. If you mean: Saddam shoul be removed BECAUSE he has violated X UN resolutions you imply that EVERY country violating UN resolution should be punished. This is LOGIC and it's not a matter of opinion.

The reponse tends to be dissecting the issues though.

Its not just that Saddam is a dictator, its not just that he has defied resolutions, its not just that he has WoMD, its not just that he has previously invaded another country and then defied the ceasefire terms etc... It is all these things combined.

You have got to argue the sum of the parts, not the individual parts.

	17-03-2003 18:41									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Chirac said maybe 60 days, maybe 30 days, but not before the Inspectors have nothing left which they can possibly inspect in Iraq. In other words he isn't offering any compromise; he wants to continue the failed policies of the last 12 years no matter what.

When the 30 days are finished Chirak will ask for 30 more days...

	17-03-2003 18:43									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wow, we just watched the destruction of the political future of the British and Spanish heads-of-state.

I disagree. We watched the construction of the future of the British and the Spanish.

	17-03-2003 18:50									#56
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quote: "Monday is last day of diplomacy"

It is also, probably, the last day of peace.

	17-03-2003 18:54									#57
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If you add up a sufficient number of attributes and say that only taken togher justify your action.... you can justify just about everything or, at least, you must limit yourself to discuss particular cases and not "generals".
In your line of thinking Saddam could have justified the invasion of Kuwait saying that in that "particular case" the invasion was "right". And I would have been in great pain to argue that without saying "invading another country (IN GENERAL) in wrong".

	17-03-2003 18:56									#58
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quote: It is also, probably, the last day of peace.

Well, wouldn´t there be those 48 - 72 hours to get all inspectors out of the country before the war starts?

I know they were urged to leave today, but I thought only those from the IAEO so far?

Edit: I see, the UNMOVIC guys too

But it is not officially confirmed from the UN side yet (which will of course be soon the case)

	17-03-2003 19:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sloth If you add up a sufficient number of attributes and say that only taken togher justify your action.... you can justify just about everything or, at least, you must limit yourself to discuss particular cases and not "generals". In your line of thinking Saddam could have justified the invasion of Kuwait saying that in that "particular case" the invasion was "right". And I would have been in great pain to argue that without saying "invading another country (IN GENERAL) in wrong".

You can argue specifics, but you can not discount an argument of specifics with one at a time comparisons.

	17-03-2003 19:16									#60
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quote: If you mean: Saddam shoul be removed BECAUSE is a dictator you imply that EVERY dictator should be removed. If you mean: Saddam shoul be removed BECAUSE he has violated X UN resolutions you imply that EVERY country violating UN resolution should be punished. This is LOGIC and it's not a matter of opinion.

Individually those two may not be enough to convince a person of a need for action. Combined they are compelling.

To then dissect the issues is to ignore the sum of their parts. By such arguing you can say that a rapist, murderer & burglar, is not worse than a murderer because we are taking each of those crimes independently.