17-03-2003 21:12									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ned To some extent, MacArthur came to the aid of SK on his own initiative, prior to a UN resolution. Had he had not been fired by that appeaser Truman, there would be no North Korea today.

You're right, N.Korea would be a radioactive wasteland from all the nukes he wanted to use on them and China..

	17-03-2003 21:13									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Not surprising as there was no UN at the time.

I know. But that is not the point.

	17-03-2003 21:14									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I know. But that is not the point.

And my point is the comparison is out of place.

	17-03-2003 21:15									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You know its history. It was once one country - a mandate - run by the Brits under League of Nations and then UN authority. As to Palestinian becoming Israeli citizens - this is a solution I think will work. However, both parties do not want it.

So neither party accepts that it is a civil war, and neither do the US, Europe, or anybody else, but you think that it is?

This is like saying that Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was a purely internal matter, given that they boh had been part of the Ottoman Empire.

Ned, you can't have it both ways. If the Israelis themselves don't act as though it's a civil war, then a defense of them by claiming it is one simply means that they're guilty of racism and apartheid (since if Pals are Israeli citizens, as they must be for it to be a civil war, then the Israelis are keeping them kenneled up in the Occupied Territories, and do not let them vote or share in the benefits of citizenship etc.)

	17-03-2003 21:17									#95
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Ned, ease down. You're driving your argument off a cliff.

	17-03-2003 21:19									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You know its history. It was once one country - a mandate - run by the Brits under League of Nations and then UN authority. As to Palestinian becoming Israeli citizens - this is a solution I think will work. However, both parties do not want it.

Either all Palestinians are Isaeli citizens or they are not. if they are, it is indeed a civil war, but the Israeli government will have to be held responsible for some ghastly human rights and civil rights abuses, which you seem to support unconditionally for some unfathomable reason. If they are not, then it is a war and the Geneva Convention applies.

Take your pick.

	17-03-2003 21:20									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch You're right, N.Korea would be a radioactive wasteland from all the nukes he wanted to use on them and China..

I'm sure the Russians would have been pleased.

	17-03-2003 21:23									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch You're right, N.Korea would be a radioactive wasteland from all the nukes he wanted to use on them and China..

Big Crunch, you do know Truman authorized the use of nukes. However, when he fired MacArthur, he went passive. He was content to hold the line at the 38th parallel. Had he wanted to, he could have pushed the commies back to the Yalu and held the armistice line there.

	17-03-2003 21:27									#99
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He should have pushed their nappy asses into China where they belong, Ned.

	17-03-2003 21:27									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger And given that the US was not even a member of the LoN.

No the point is that the US has been acting to defend friends and allies for a long time and we do not need the League of Nations or the United Nations to continue to do this.

Somalia, Kosovo and Haiti also represent efforts by the US to restore law and order for the sake of the local population. The last two actions were without UN authority.

	17-03-2003 21:28									#101
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I'm betting on limited attacks on air defense tonight (Baghdad time).


Is there a possibility of a quick strike to take out Hussein? If they knew where he was it would certainly have the element of surprise.

	17-03-2003 21:30									#102
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Ned, ease down. You're driving your argument off a cliff.

Perhaps, but the Israelis' own view is that the 4th Geneva Convention does not apply. They view the conquest of the WB and Gaza as kicking out the foreigner from Palestine - which was their homeland under the Mandate.

	17-03-2003 21:31									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Perhaps, but the Israelis' own view is that the 4th Geneva Convention does not apply. They view the conquest of the WB and Gaza as kicking out the foreigner from Palestine - which was their homeland under the Mandate.

Who gave them the mandate? And whose resolutions are they now defying?

	17-03-2003 21:31									#104
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'm betting on limited attacks on air defense tonight (Baghdad time). Is there a possibility of a quick strike to take out Hussein? If they knew where he was it would certainly have the element of surprise.

we've been softening up air defences and radar for a while now

as for the saddam take out strike, he's probably dug himself into the center of the earth by now.

	17-03-2003 21:35									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Big Crunch, you do know Truman authorized the use of nukes. However, when he fired MacArthur, he went passive. He was content to hold the line at the 38th parallel. Had he wanted to, he could have pushed the commies back to the Yalu and held the armistice line there.

He authorised nukes on Japan. MacArthur asked for authorisation on Korea and on China - he was denied.

	17-03-2003 21:36									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Perhaps, but the Israelis' own view is that the 4th Geneva Convention does not apply. They view the conquest of the WB and Gaza as kicking out the foreigner from Palestine - which was their homeland under the Mandate.

Theirs and theirs alone?

Please.

It was given to all the residents of the area known then as Palestine.

And the people living in the Occupied Territories are, by and large either composed of those people or their descendants.

The Israelis don't have any damn right to kick out whoever they want to simply because of their ethnicity. That is the essence of the Geneva Protocol regarding war and civilian populations.

They can claim whatever they want, but the rest of the world disagrees with them, and has said so through the SC.

	17-03-2003 21:37									#107
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Nothing wil happen tonight, besides Bush's ultimatum at 8EST. CNN was throwing around 72 hours.

By chucking the proposed new resoltuion, at least the US and UK (Spain's support is like Bulgaria's, moral) can say that they have the leagl standing for this war from rpevious resolutions: had they gone along and failed, this war would have been an act expressely against the whishes of the council, and hence illegal.

Oh, and Robin Cook, head of the House of Commons just quit.

	17-03-2003 21:37									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Either all Palestinians are Isaeli citizens or they are not. if they are, it is indeed a civil war, but the Israeli government will have to be held responsible for some ghastly human rights and civil rights abuses, which you seem to support unconditionally for some unfathomable reason. If they are not, then it is a war and the Geneva Convention applies. Take your pick.

UR, the 4th Geneva Convention applies only to wars between contracting parties. The parties to the '67 war are Israel and Jordan in the case of the WB, and Israel and Egypt in the case of Gaza. The problem is, the territory that the Israeli's conquered from Jordan and Egypt was not Jordanian or Egyptian territory, but Palestinian territory - land with was their country, their homeland under the Mandate.

As to the Palestinians becoming Israeli citizens - well I think this should have been the answer long ago.

	17-03-2003 21:40									#109
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Under your interpretation the Palestinians are already Israeli citizens. They've simply been denied a vote, a voice and their freedom as should be guaranteed as such.

Which is it, Ned?

Are the Israelis guilty of forcible migrations of populations under the Geneva Conventions regarding wars as claimed by the SC or are they guilty of apartheid wrt an internal population which they "liberated" from Jordanian and Egyptian occupation?

	17-03-2003 21:41									#110
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX we've been softening up air defences and radar for a while now as for the saddam take out strike, he's probably dug himself into the center of the earth by now.

No, we've attacked SAM sites that have moved into the south or north no fly zones or who have locked onto our AC. Baghdad defenses have not been targetted for years.

	17-03-2003 21:44									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Theirs and theirs alone? Please. It was given to all the residents of the area known then as Palestine. And the people living in the Occupied Territories are, by and large either composed of those people or their descendants. The Israelis don't have any damn right to kick out whoever they want to simply because of their ethnicity. That is the essence of the Geneva Protocol regarding war and civilian populations. They can claim whatever they want, but the rest of the world disagrees with them, and has said so through the SC.

Frogger, of course it is not theirs alone. That is why the Palestinian question has lingered for more than a generation. Had Israel simply granted citizenship to the Palestinians, the problem would have been over long ago.

As to what the world thinks - it is quite obvious from UN SC 799 that it does believe the Geneva Convention applies. Which is why I was puzzled that the US did not veto these resolutions.

Regardless, the US position now is that the settlements must stop. This is consistent with US recognition that the Geneva Convention applies.

	17-03-2003 21:46									#112
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72 hours? Why such a generous amount of time?

Why not give him to sundown Tuesday to get out of Dodge.

	17-03-2003 21:47									#113
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Two problems with your notion Ned:

1. Egypt never cvlaimed the Gaza strip as Egyptian territory; it was controlled by an Egyptian military governor, so in essence, Gaza was under Egyptian occupation. In 1967 Israel traded places with Egypt, but it was still occupying.

2. Only Jordan (and Israel) ever accepted Jordan's claim to the West bank. The Arab league condemmed Jordan for that action. In essence, the West bank was neevr trully Jordan's to give up.

	17-03-2003 21:56									#114
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The point GePap is that Palestine was as much Jewish land as Arab prior to the '48 wars. When they retook it in '67, the land was their land, not Jordan's or Egypt's.

However, I also agree that it was just as much the Palestinian's land - they held it in "common."

The Geneva convention never envisioned such a series of events as we saw in Palestine. It does not apply by its own terms.

On a related note, I understand that we tried the Japanese for crimes of aggression and war crimes under international treaties to which they were not parties. This seems to suggest that these treaties form a body of international law that is binding reqardless. Viewed this way, the world is calling on Israel to abide by the terms of the Geneva convention even though technically it does not apply.

	17-03-2003 22:06									#115
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Wow I dont think ive had such a popular thread since the "Pepsi vs Coke" fiasco last summer.


Anyway. Keep in mind guys. The more we did diplomacy the more the Iraqi's dug in. From a military stand-point, there will be more casualties now and victory might be 3-4 days longer

Just think Kursk, hitler could of eradicated the salient in 24 hours after kharkov. But he stopped his forces and insisted on waiting a month and a half for 12,000 Soviet tanks to move in.

	17-03-2003 22:12									#116
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I love this comment by Paula Span of the Washington Post.

"But it's hard to ignore the artwork installed recently outside the [security] council chambers, a gift from the African island nation of Mauritius. About 18 inches high, it's a gleaming, glass-encased sculpture of a dodo bird, graceless and extinct, meant to make an environmental statement, now portending something different."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2003Mar16.html

	17-03-2003 23:09									#117
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thats making my profile