17-03-2003 05:50									#1
	Trade Scheme Outline with CDG Enter the AD-FREE zone

Okay, this is the deal I outlined with Kentonio and Micaelis_Rex of CDG:

We will trade them Alphabet for Bronze Working ASAP. When they complete Iron Working, they will give it to us for free in exchange for Alphabet. I originally offered them Alphabet and 20 gold immediately for BW and IW, but Kentonio reduced the offer. After that, we will research Writing, and then Map Making, while they will research the Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Buruial, and Mysticism. We will then trade all of these techs which we have completed to each other.

Our teams are now on very good relations, and I would seriously doubt they would betray us. Even if they do go against the deal, all we'd lose is a bit of the worth of Alphabet, while we gain BW, and with them... NMs. So it would be foolish to betray us by giving us the very weapon we'd use to defend ourselves. I think this is an excellent deal. What do you guys think?

This is a mini-log of the latter half of my independant discussions with them:

	17-03-2003 05:55									#2
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This sounds doable. I like the plan.

	17-03-2003 06:03									#3
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Good work Trip.

How did you get that log file?

	17-03-2003 06:08									#4
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Excellent job, Trip!
Excellent job, Togas!

I am perfectly okay with the deal. If they betray us, we will still be safe thanks to the Mercs (and find out their true intentions early). If not, we've made an excellent deal and started a long-term cooperation.

	17-03-2003 06:09									#5
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At the point of getting MM from us, is when I expect to see a stack of Immortals come to visit.

E_T

	17-03-2003 06:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 Good work Trip. How did you get that log file?

I copied the text as an image file using a program, and pasted the image together again.

	17-03-2003 06:14									#7
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quote: Originally posted by E_T At the point of getting MM from us, is when I expect to see a stack of Immortals come to visit. E_T

Even if that's the case, we'll have BW and many NMs by then anyways.

	17-03-2003 06:15									#8
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Excuse me, did you just proceed to negotiate along lines Togas and I along with others including yourself had rejected? BW for Alphabet now?

	17-03-2003 06:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Excuse me, did you just proceed to negotiate along lines Togas and I along with others including yourself had rejected? BW for Alphabet now?

They will be giving us IW when they finish it, according to the deal. If they don't, then we'll assume they want to attack, and be able to start building up NMs before they can link iron and get some Immortals ready. If they do go ahead with the deal completely, then we'll be in a great situation tech-wise. Either way, we'll be able to read their mood towards us and prepare for it in the future.

Keep in mind, this was all an informal arrangement, so going ahead with the deal is up to the decision of the consuls and the team.

	17-03-2003 06:34									#10
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How many research points are we giving, and how many are we getting? And who has better research?

	17-03-2003 06:37									#11
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I have made my dissatisfaction with Trip's wholy independent negotiation clear to Trip and others in the chatroom. This deal appears reasonable, and along the lines of what we ultimately wanted, but I am somewhat unhappy that after Trip, NYE, and myself had agreed that we didn't want to trade Alphabet for BW, Trip went ahead and offered it after we left.

I know Trip feels he has special contacts with this team and special powers of persuasion and I pray that this sort of maverick behavior from our Minister of War is not going to be repeated. This is a democracy in which we all have different responsibilities and appointed duties.

BigFree1 believes that this is a good deal and Vondrack seems to also approve of it. Since this is a mammoth plan that will pretty much wed us to CDG until we finish Mapmaking (50+ turns), we need to carefully decide if this is what we want.

Some key notes:

We spent several hours talking with CDG where they tried to wrangle Alphabet from us for BW. We couldn't get them to agree to a fair trade and finally gave up, telling them that we'd both have to finish the research on our own.

Our analysis at the time was that they didn't have Alphabet and were bluffing to try to get a sweet deal out of us. They failed. Which perhaps lead them to reconsider and take Trip's offer for BW for Alphabet & IW later. This is most likely a fair trade.

The next phase of the deal is very far off in the future, and it is unclear if they will follow through with it ... and it's unclear if we should want them to. We may find other contacts with which to receive the other "basic" techs for writing and keep MM to ourselves. They may decide to attack us. Either way, if the crux of our deal is completed ... Alphabet for BW & IW, I think we will have made off very well.

We just need a means for them to tell us when they get IW, and we need to make sure they give it to us the same turn.

--Togas

	17-03-2003 06:40									#12
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Special powers of persuasion? I estimate we are offering 23 or 24 tech points for 19 and a half coming back to us. We should all be so persuasive. Hoo boooy!

	17-03-2003 06:40									#13
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And they likely research faster.

	17-03-2003 06:46									#14
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6 Iron Working
4 The Wheel
3 Warrior Code
2 ceremonial Burial
4 Mysticism
--
19

1.5 add 1 for the rest of Bronze Working.

20.5 received


8 Writing
12 Map Making
--
20

3.5 for the rest of Alphabet

23.5 given


Each point is 25 beakers/commerce.

If they have a river, they research faster than us.

	17-03-2003 06:50									#15
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I felt I did what I had to do at that time when it needed to be done. CDG was rather "turned off" with us after I started talking with them again, and I felt I needed to jump start negotiation with them in order to prevent something bad happening in our future... I think it's best we leave things at that.

As Togas pointed out, only the first part of the deal (Alphabet for BW and IW) is anywhere near completed. If we get to that deal then we've already come out way ahead. It's likely things will change very dramatically between now and by the time we get Writing/Map Making, so that can all be later renegotiated if we see it fit.

	17-03-2003 06:56									#16
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Oh, they feel bad we wouldn't give them 80 or 90 beakers for 40? Too bad!

	17-03-2003 06:57									#17
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We can't renegotiate if we agree to this full deal. We can't just change our minds because we later found a tech in a goodie hut or found a friendly trade partner to the east. If we agree to the whole, we live by the whole. If we agree to a part, we make it clear that we agree to a part.

--Togas

	17-03-2003 06:58									#18
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Copied from chat:

what we need with them, is an all for all deal.

under [this] deal, for every tech they pop, they pull ahead of us by satisfying terms for free.

every tech we pop is a useless cog in the trade with them.

they gain from tech huts. we don't

that is my thinking of why it is a very bad deal, negotiated on the wrong basis.

	17-03-2003 07:02									#19
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, they feel bad we wouldn't give them 80 or 90 beakers for 40? Too bad!

Diplomacy is touch-and-go. If nothing else, it may be the difference between a "cautious" or "annoyed" attitude and a "polite" one. People have egos and feelings, and those will affect their decisions in the game. The more favorable terms we're on with them the better. Often in the PTW DG team members would grow fond of a certain team (or vice versa), and that would affect the team's actions towards that team, despite what the leader thought. Getting on good terms with the "CDG team" as a whole can be advantageous if GF or someone else decides it may be a good time to launch an attack...

	17-03-2003 07:04									#20
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nye does have a point, right.

What about asking one more tech, like Horseback Riding (cost 5), explaining the reasoning with how techs popped out of huts work for them and not for us? Perhaps conditioning this one last tech by them popping at least one tech out of a hut?

	17-03-2003 07:04									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We can't renegotiate if we agree to this full deal. We can't just change our minds because we later found a tech in a goodie hut or found a friendly trade partner to the east. If we agree to the whole, we live by the whole. If we agree to a part, we make it clear that we agree to a part. --Togas

Which is the whole reason why I made it clear that everything I said was on an informal and unofficial stance... so re-negotiation of certain points or other issues could be dealt with.

	17-03-2003 07:04									#22
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We discussed the possibility of them bluffing, decided to walk away and call the bluff. Then you proceeded to sit back down and play right into a bluff.

That is beyond diplomacy, Trip. Togas is not angry. I'm not sure why. I'm near furious.

	17-03-2003 07:06									#23
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We discussed the possibility of them bluffing, decided to walk away and call the bluff. Then you proceeded to sit back down and play right into a bluff. That is beyond diplomacy, Trip. Togas is not angry. I'm not sure why. I'm near furious.

If that's how you feel then you can call it off and no damage is done. Right?

	17-03-2003 07:07									#24
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I like the way this deal runs its couse though. Sure we give them Alphabet now for BW (they get more.) But then we get IW, WC and The Wheel for Writing (our favor). To finalize the trade we give Map Making for Mysticism and CB (their favor).

Since this deal is heavier on the back-end for them they are less likely to act hostile with us up to the point this deal is completed. If they backout in the middle I think we come away the better of the two in this deal, unless they back away right after we give them Alphabet for BW.(Which I don't think that they will do.)

	17-03-2003 07:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trip If that's how you feel then you can call it off and no damage is done. Right?

I hope no damage is done. I really hope so.

	17-03-2003 07:11									#26
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That is beyond diplomacy, Trip. Togas is not angry. I'm not sure why. I'm near furious.

I got mad at trip in the ApolytonISDG channel.

But no reason to carry it over into the forum.

--Togas

	17-03-2003 07:11									#27
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In the way I see it, the deal is good, and can be improved, if they research faster. Anyway, we don't know yet if we're alone in an island... But if we are, what else can we do? Kill those guys (or be killed by them) and be discovered by one of the others, stuck in a big tech lack?
Yes, we are in a democracy, and things like that need to be discussed...

quote: Originally posted by Togas I have made my dissatisfaction with Trip's wholy independent negotiation clear to Trip and others in the chatroom. This deal appears reasonable, and along the lines of what we ultimately wanted, but I am somewhat unhappy that after Trip, NYE, and myself had agreed that we didn't want to trade Alphabet for BW, Trip went ahead and offered it after we left. ....................... --Togas

I'm feeling like the common people reading the news about disagreements in the government... I can agree or disagree with a side or another, but I can't do nothing more... Can I?
Well, I can post here... In RL the things are worst.

	17-03-2003 07:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I hope no damage is done. I really hope so.

What damage would there be? I gave them no more information about us than had already been revealed, since I was just trying to convince them to agree to a deal. I never committed to anything, and I'm not even an official so the "deal" can be called off at any time for that reason. Do you think I telepathically transmitted our secret information to them?

	17-03-2003 07:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack nye does have a point, right. What about asking one more tech, like Horseback Riding (cost 5), explaining the reasoning with how techs popped out of huts work for them and not for us? Perhaps conditioning this one last tech by them popping at least one tech out of a hut?

Assume we are two alone on this island.

Do we want to count beakers and arrange the trades many turns in advance, while we research the most expensive, never get from hut techs?

Or do we want to go back to them in a few turns, after they get a chance to see that we stay away with Wbigfree, and suggest a more comprehensive deal where neither side risks falling behind no matter how the huts turn out?

Then, what if we're not alone? What if they have a contact? What if they are getting techs to trade to us from another source as well as huts? They will be well on the way to the Middle Ages and we'll be wondering what happened to our jock strap.

	17-03-2003 07:16									#30
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excuse me guys, I'm the appointed Ambassador to CDG. I was in the Chat with Trip and the other guys from CDG; I ws lurking in the main chat, but I had a Private chat with Trip on the side. I let Trip know that I thought he was doing well with them up to this point (he hadn't brought up the Alphabet for BW trade yet). So Trip, acting on my authority, proceeded to 'talk them up' a bit. When he re-intruduced the Alphabet for BW trade he noted that it would have to include our getting IW in the future. I think you guys know the rest. But, again, trip was acting with my authority, I asked trip to continue the talks to see where they would lead.

I'm sorry if I shouldn't have done that (asking trip to do my job).

But then none of you other guys should've been there either(Exception of Togas). Yes you may be a Consul or a Minister, but that was not the job delegated to you; you guys delegated it to me. If anyone should fel steped on it is me and then maybe Togas because he is my boss.

Let's not argue anymore about this, ok?

I love you guys!