17-03-2003 07:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Trip What damage would there be? I gave them no more information about us than had already been revealed, since I was just trying to convince them to agree to a deal. I never committed to anything, and I'm not even an official so the "deal" can be called off at any time for that reason. Do you think I telepathically transmitted our secret information to them?

How do we tell them no without putting them further on guard?

	17-03-2003 07:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How do we tell them no without putting them further on guard?

We state our legitimate concerns with the deal to them. If they're unwilling to address them, then we have a reason to call things off. This was the same way the first chat ended over the Alpha for BW issue, and if things are dealt with in this manner we'll be exactly where we were, would we not?

	17-03-2003 07:26									#33
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I hope Togas and/or the Consuls reprimand Trip appropriately. This kind of behaviour undermines the efforts and decisions of our officials appointed for this purpose. After this one incident, the Persians could now question everything our FM says, and seek better terms from other team members.

In addition, I will voice my complete dissatisfaction with the both the initial proposed trade, and the future agreements. In the PtWDG, RP got 5 techs and $ for Alphabet - it is an extremely valuable lynchpin tech, leading to many other techs and wonders, and should not be undersold. With regards to future tech deals - I vehemently oppose them. In the PtWDG, we saw several ways they can "go wrong", in terms of unexpected events, differences in research rates, and sore feelings.

An initial trade between teams that have just made contact should be as equal as possible, including only things on hand - this creates a positive trust the teams can build on. A first trade that requires more trust on one side than another is a bad idea, imho. And such early attempts at future tech planning and trading are foolish, in light of any number of events and discoveries for either team in the next 20-40 turns. Future tech trading once all neighbouring civs are known, and good relations exists, are fine.

	17-03-2003 07:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Trip We state our legitimate concerns with the deal to them. If they're unwilling to address them, then we have a reason to call things off. This was the same way the first chat ended over the Alpha for BW issue, and if things are dealt with in this manner we'll be exactly where we were, would we not?

We wouldn't have to "call things off" if the trade had not been unofficially discussed. Now we either swallow a bad deal, or upset them by "calling it off". I can't understate how bad I think this exchange was for a first diplomatic contact. If you were on their side, what would you think...

Do we talk to Togas? Bigfree? Trip?
Who has authority?
Can we can get better deals talking to different members, playing them off one another?
Are they playing good cop/bad cop for us?
Is the later discussion an official one, and the proposed deal an official agreement pending approval, or just an idea?


This is precisely the kind of poor communication that got RP and GoW into conflicts and poor relations.

	17-03-2003 07:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by dejon We wouldn't have to "call things off" if the trade had not been unofficially discussed. Now we either swallow a bad deal, or upset them by "calling it off".

I can just as easily call things off as easily as I negotiated them, if the need presents itself. All without diplomatic repercussions also.

quote: I can't understate how bad I think this exchange was for a first diplomatic contact. If you were on their side, what would you think... Do we talk to Togas? Bigfree? Trip? Who has authority? Can we can get better deals talking to different members, playing them off one another? Are they playing good cop/bad cop for us? Is the later discussion an official one, and the proposed deal an official agreement pending approval, or just an idea? This is precisely the kind of poor communication that got RP and GoW into conflicts and poor relations.

They understand who has the authority. I'm friends with them and I've talked with them a lot before, so I tried to grease them up to accept a deal. I made it plainly obvious that I was acting in an unofficial role and that that was a very odd exception to the norm.

	17-03-2003 07:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I can just as easily call things off as easily as I negotiated them, if the need presents itself. All without diplomatic repercussions also. They understand who has the authority. I'm friends with them and I've talked with them a lot before, so I tried to grease them up to accept a deal. I made it plainly obvious that I was acting in an unofficial role and that that was a very odd exception to the norm.

Ok, that's good. I may ( ) have overreacted a bit, but after the experiences on the RP team I do feel strongly that we should follow a strict diplomatic protocal.

	17-03-2003 07:51									#37
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It was either this or not trading for 14 turns...

	17-03-2003 07:56									#38
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OK, I have read all the above posts, the fors and againsts and the disagreements. I would ask a question - how long do we have to decide on this deal? It certainly seems to me that the deal itself needs some further discussion, separate from whether Trip should have offered it in the first place. Objective discussion of the pros and cons, and leave the question of Trip's (or anyone else's, in the future) involvement and authority in dealing with other teams. Frankly I think this is an interesting deal that deserves to be treated on its own merits.

So if you must, create another thread for determining the bounds of negotiations, and keep this for the issue at hand - namely a potential friend-creating deal that nets us our UU IMMEDIATELY and many other techs without having to research them ourselves. At the very least, if we were selling ourselves a little short and CDG knew this, they would be far less inclined to feel belligerent towards us, certainly a great boon in dealing with the Persians.

And remember you can "what if" forever and you still get nowhere. I'm not saying we should take this deal, but actions are the best way to get something done, and sometimes we may need to take risks to stay in the running. Let's not get into overcautious mode so early on.

Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 17-03-2003 at 08:03

	17-03-2003 07:58									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Trip It was either this or not trading for 14 turns...

I don't have a problem with that. 14 turns to find contact with others, 14 turns to pop huts, 14 turns for them to realize that we will stick to our guns, and not be bluffed into disadvantageous trades.

	17-03-2003 08:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by dejon I don't have a problem with that. 14 turns to find contact with others, 14 turns to pop huts, 14 turns for them to realize that we will stick to our guns, and not be bluffed into disadvantageous trades.

The problem is that we both end up with equal techs when that turn 14 comes, meaning we have to completely re-negotiate our tech scheduling (because if we were to get Writing and they were getting Iron Working, that's a very unbalanced deal in itself). We'd also have to completely negotiate a new plan, and instead of being ahead (as Alpha for BW and IW + later gives us), we'd be on absolute equal terms which is less favorable than what we could negotiate using this as a base for the future.

	17-03-2003 08:13									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I can just as easily call things off as easily as I negotiated them, if the need presents itself. All without diplomatic repercussions also.

I'm not going to get into this debate, but I must comment on the quote above. In 95% of the cases, it is not true. That is, although you can "unofficially" chat tech trades and deals between teams all you want, there is always one party that thinks things are more or less officially agreed upon when leaving the table. Even if they are aware of the fact that the agreements still needs to be ratified (even if it is explicitly stated at the beginning, middle and end of the dialogue), they will be put out if you back out of the deal.

For this reason, I recommend against any "unofficial" chit-chats, unless they're 1) by our policy-makers, 2) make heavy use of counter-factual language ("What if Apolyton were to give you Alphabet, etc. and you were to give us so-and-so...), and 3) mark down a specific "follow-up" time where the proposals will be ratified or not (leaving some time for the ambassadors to confer with their team).

There is nothing more annoying that feeling you're being jerked around diplomatically, which is how CDG will feel if 3 or 4 of our members are "unofficially" making offers left and right.


Dominae

	17-03-2003 08:17									#42
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Just in defense of my own actions, I was acting under the authority of BF, the ambassador to CDG, who authorized me to inquire them about the trade. While some may consider the "face" that the team deals with to be important, as I pointed out, I made it clear to them that diplomacy was not my battlfield, per se, and that they should not talk to me about such matters from then on.

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 excuse me guys, I'm the appointed Ambassador to CDG. I was in the Chat with Trip and the other guys from CDG; I ws lurking in the main chat, but I had a Private chat with Trip on the side. I let Trip know that I thought he was doing well with them up to this point (he hadn't brought up the Alphabet for BW trade yet). So Trip, acting on my authority, proceeded to 'talk them up' a bit. When he re-intruduced the Alphabet for BW trade he noted that it would have to include our getting IW in the future. I think you guys know the rest. But, again, trip was acting with my authority, I asked trip to continue the talks to see where they would lead. I'm sorry if I shouldn't have done that (asking trip to do my job). But then none of you other guys should've been there either(Exception of Togas). Yes you may be a Consul or a Minister, but that was not the job delegated to you; you guys delegated it to me. If anyone should fel steped on it is me and then maybe Togas because he is my boss. Let's not argue anymore about this, ok? I love you guys!

	17-03-2003 08:42									#43
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Sometimes you have to play a little diplomatic Hardball, just to get things going. IF they didn't want to play on our terms, then we could go and research the same things and whom ever gets the tech first pays the full price for it, where as the second person doesn't have to pay as much for the same tech. After they do that for a little while, they will realize the futility and will be a bit more reasonable at the Negotiation Tables.

E_T

	17-03-2003 08:44									#44
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However that would mean we both lose a lot of ground in the tech field, and that's not good, especially for a MP DG.

	17-03-2003 09:00									#45
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Without meaning to butt in for no reason but with with the intent of making sure a discussion like this is unnesseray in the future, I propose we:

- Conduct diplomacy through "official" channels only, i.e. via our appointed ambassadors. In the case an urgent negotiation is necessary we do it officially though a chat in which the FM or his deputy is present/the ambassador is present/any other member invited by these. We set up two chats, one (private) amongst our members and one with the other team. All discussion with the other team (and I mean every friggin line of text) MUST be agreed upon by our own members in the private chat before we mention this to the others. This should eliminate any giving away information which is best kept to ourself since the negotiator has enough on his head trying to reach a deal, we don't want to over-burden him by also having him quick-think what NOT to say.

	17-03-2003 09:07									#46
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We also must agree that no-one will take it upon themselves to make "what if" scenarios with any other civ since we don't know how "official" the other team will take it. I mean, they know who our "big shots" are, just as we know theirs, if these same people start shooting of what ifs, how can we guarantee the other team will not believe that these, our policy-makers, are not saying something they don't intend to keep.

Let's keep this professionaly, no need for vague or confusing diplomacy when we have good enough instruments to do it. The ambassadors know that they are not in it alone, many of us contribute to their drafts, so let's not ruin it by needless chit-chat thru un-official channels. Let's do it right!

AND, let's leave out any anger at any members and forget the whole thing. I sense more than one of you is kinda pissed at Trip for what he did, but let's not forget that everything anyone has done - whether right or wrong - has done it with the intention of helping the Apolyton team. Let's not start rifts so early in the game.

	17-03-2003 15:22									#47
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Wow. I go to sleep for just one night, and there are already 3 pages of discussion... !

First, a Question. What is this deal?

quote: Originally posted by Trip We will trade them Alphabet for Bronze Working ASAP. When they complete Iron Working, they will give it to us for free in exchange for Alphabet.

As I understand it, we give Alphabet and they give BW and IW, right?

Now, the conclusions:

This is a moderately good deal (the importance of Alphabet has been stressed already) for us, if it were to be done all at the same time. However, in the thread 'Lessons of Lux' it can be read that giving techs for trust, or for some future tech trade (as it is proposed here) is a very bad thing to do. Why? Simply because the situation might change. A goody hut may give one party the tech that was promised; a third civ might wander in and offer the tech; an iron resource may pop up at the 'wrong' spot, etc.

Trust has already been damaged (slightly) since we suspect them to be lying about what they are researching.

The deal about researching all the other techs stretches quite far into the future.

BFM's advice:

Please do not negotiate tech deals that far into the future!

	17-03-2003 23:38									#48
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Summary of proposed deal:

-Alphabet (5) for Bronze Working (3) immediately
-Writing (8) for Iron Working (6) the Wheel (4) and Warrior Code (3)
-Map Making (12) for Ceremonial Burial (2) and Mysticism (4)

-No whoring clause
-Good hut clause


EDIT: There's already a thread about this

Last edited by Master Zen on 18-03-2003 at 00:03

	18-03-2003 00:00									#49
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BTW, this same exact discussion is going on in the ACTUAL: which deal with CDG is best for Apolytonia thread, why not continue over there since there's a poll going on?

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=80803

	18-03-2003 12:05									#50
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In an attempt to create a single thread dealing with our relations to CDG, I am redirecting all future debates to a new thread, containing the latest draft. Comment over there, please.

Thank you.