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notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:26
  Old Post 17-03-2003 06:10
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Turn 20 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To be edited by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Researching Bronze Working at 100%, ready in 8 turns.
- 41 gold cash, 0 gpt.

Urgent questions:

Military:
Bigree the Warrior moves 2.
Alva the Warrior fortified in Apolyton.

Economy:

Diplomacy:

---

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results.

Last edited by notyoueither on 17-03-2003 at 13:04

bigfree1
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  Old Post 17-03-2003 06:53
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I like move South with Wbigfree as long as he continues South, fully exploring the land without encroaching the Persian border.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm in favor of the trade of techs' with Persia. Which is kinda like this:

1. We give them Alphabet now and they give us BW now.

2. We will research Writing and trade that for IW, Wheel, and WC.

3. We will research Map Making and trade that for Mysticism and CB.

The exact time-line for doing these trade is not lined out; infatc it may be that they want the whole deal lumped together; with each team giving the other the Tech as they get it.


The wole deal works out like this:

Us getting 22 units of value in Tech
Them getting 25 units of value in Tech

This is a little misleading because of two things.

1. They will have to research lower level items and cant's go any faster than 4 turns each even if they have resources to do it; of course they bank the gold but we all know Tech is more valuable than gold.

2. We have already have Alphabet, so we don't have costs associated with it; likewise for them with BW. Since Alphabet is worth 5 and BW is worth 3; it brings the balance to: Us-20 Them-19. This is much closer now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I suggest we switch research to Writing now. This is a risk seeing as how we don't have BW yet from Peria; but I got the feeling that they would follow through on the deal.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 17-03-2003 09:25 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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Why can't we just trade BW for Alphabet right now secure part 2 of the deal and leave 3 for later (time reasons)?

I also think they would agree so why don't we trade these 2 techs now?

8 turns is 8 turns...

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:26
  Old Post 17-03-2003 09:27 Visit Trip's homepage!
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That may be a good idea, though they will probably be skeptical since the deal that favors them the most is actually the 3rd part.

bigfree1
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  Old Post 17-03-2003 09:47
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The third part favors them most, only at first glance though. You have to look at the deal as a 'whole'.

I think that we will have researched Writing and Map Making well before they finnish their's. This gives us the chance to research other Techs while they are still trying to fulfill the agreement. We win if this is true because we are researching something that they do not have and we don't have to give them and we have much more marketable techs than they do.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 17-03-2003 09:58 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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You think perhaps we should point out the entire picture to them so they don't ASSUME that we'll back out before part 3 is in effect?

Of course we won't mention that we might reasearch writing and MM before they finish theirs...

bigfree1
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  Old Post 17-03-2003 10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
You think perhaps we should point out the entire picture to them so they don't ASSUME that we'll back out before part 3 is in effect?

Of course we won't mention that we might reasearch writing and MM before they finish theirs...


No, of course not...what they don't know won't hurt them!

In the propsoal I've submitted to Togas it outlines that certain things must be completed before others. IE: We get a certain tech from before you get this other one from us. It's balanced overall, but each part itself is not balanced. I hope that is clear.

SideNote:
I had NO idea how much time a game like this was going to steal from me. I feel like it's a week after I got Civ 2! I stayed up nearly 48 hours once in the first week for that "just one more turn" disease!

This is a lot of work and the people who are our leader's deserve alot of respect for they truly put in a lot of time towards our teams efforts to do well.

Thanks guys!

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
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Jan 2003
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  Old Post 17-03-2003 10:22 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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I'm just worried that they'll say no to a fair deal thinking there more in it to ourselves. That's why I mentioned if we tell them what you wrote in your 1st post, NOT what's in the 2nd. Of course I don't wanna tell them our intentions of staying ahead either.


I have TREMENDOUS respect for the people who are giving so much time and effort to this, vondrack, BFM, Dominae, just looking at the "30 turns ahead" chart for the Ministry of Interior is like WOW, these are pros.

Me, I'll just post here and there but as you can see from my post counts per day, I've got a lot of time on my hands (at least this month)

vondrack is offline vondrack

Emperor
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 17:49
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FLASH!

After receiving the save, checking what's new, and moving Wbigfree1 one tile to the South as planned, borders of a city belonging to Gamecatcher (at least I believe it is Gamecatcher) appeared:



GameCatcher is India - Commercial, Religious, starting techs Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial.

I will not pass the save on and keep sitting on it until we discuss our strategy (at least until nye, Togas, and other key representatives show up).

Oh, btw, CDG offered BW without "accepting". And there is a barbarian N-NW (8-7) from Wbigfree1.

Last edited by vondrack on 18-03-2003 at 18:02

jim_steer is offline jim_steer
Warlord
Guildford, UK
Sep 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:02 Visit jim_steer's homepage!
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Blimey another civ to talk too, cool. Looks like we may need to rehash the CDG treaty again .
How much do you want to bet that CDG are going to block our progress south so we can't meet the other team, they will only need one more warrior to do so.

Aro is offline Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:05 Visit Aro's homepage!
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A question... The persian warrior, Arnold... From its position, the Gamecatcher city border is perfectly visible, isn't?
If so, they were lying. It's worse than that, they were lying like amateurs... As said by MasterZen.

Aro is offline Aro
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:11 Visit Aro's homepage!
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Another interesting point... Does this mean that Gamecatcher (or CDG) has 2 cities already? I mean, they are too close, if both cities we've found are capitals...

vondrack is offline vondrack

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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Aro
Another interesting point... Does this mean that Gamecatcher (or CDG) has 2 cities already? I mean, they are too close, if both cities we've found are capitals...

Yes, considering the score (60 ATM), Gamecatcher must have two cities already. And yes, if CDG told us there was just coast and sea south of their capital, they were blatantly lying.

Last edited by vondrack on 18-03-2003 at 18:32

MrWhereItsAt is offline MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:24
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Well well well. What do you know, I guess Trip was right about them being amateurs after all.

May I propose the idea of delaying the trade with CDG until we have contacted these new people?

Aro is offline Aro
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Jul 2002
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:45 Visit Aro's homepage!
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I agree, MWIA.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
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Jun 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Aro
Another interesting point... Does this mean that Gamecatcher (or CDG) has 2 cities already? I mean, they are too close, if both cities we've found are capitals...


It was announced in due time :

[Old Post] 10-03-2003 18:43

Gamecatchers and Netatolia have settled their second city on turn 13.

Aro is offline Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 18:56 Visit Aro's homepage!
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What's Netatolia?

Edited: J/k...

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 19:24
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Aro, this new avatar, it is your carnaval uniform ?

Dominae is offline Dominae
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Jan 2002
time: 00:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 19:36
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Sigh, and here I was, hoping to neighbor a friendly, honest and peaceful civ...

One thing is for sure, they're a lot closer to each other than to us. This could be good and bad.


Dominae

vondrack is offline vondrack

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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 19:40
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OK, just to make sure nobody misses it - I have just posted a full report for Turn 20 in the topped thread.

jim_steer is offline jim_steer
Warlord
Guildford, UK
Sep 2002
time: 05:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 19:44 Visit jim_steer's homepage!
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What do we think the chances of CDG not being aware of how close Gamecatcher are to them? They may not be lying they could just have not explored in that direction yet, a little far fetched maybe but if they have had simular luck with their warriors as we have then it could have happened. Surely no one can be stupid enough to lie about something that we will catch them on in 1 or 2 turns time.

vondrack is offline vondrack

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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 19:51
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I believe we should not completely rule that possibility out, even if it is quite unlikely. If what Aeson posted in another thread is correct, they built two spears and a warrior. One spear is garrisoning their capital, the other one is exploring (possibly in a different direction - like SW). Their warrior might have just left Elucidia (otherwise, they would be unable to intercept us that fast - besides, I believe they intercepted us by chance only, actually intending to explore westwards with their warrior).

It still is possible that they will be as surprised as we are now. Unlikely, but possible. Let's keep that in mind before we accuse them of lying (this contradicts my previous statement about CDG blatantly lying to us that's what you get when you post before you emotions cool down ).

Aro is offline Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:19 Visit Aro's homepage!
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They are lying. How could be possible not to SEE the border? We both are two tiles away from that city, same direction, same orientation... and Arnold is on a hill. They surely have a better sight than us.



I may be wrong, but...

jim_steer is offline jim_steer
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:25 Visit jim_steer's homepage!
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I think the hill in the way would block their view of the border.

vondrack is offline vondrack

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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:29
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Aro, their warrior moved to where he is only on this turn. I admit I am not sure whether the chat took place before or after they played their turn 20, If it was after they played their turn, then yes, they're lying. If it was before, they might have spotted the border only on this turn, just as we have.

Also, there may be a hill blocking their view to S (can someone post a brief summary on the visibility range rules? I readily admit I have almost no clue).

jim_steer is offline jim_steer
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Sep 2002
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:32 Visit jim_steer's homepage!
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I belive this sort of view situation happened to our warrior when we first moved him out of Apolyton (turn 6).

Aro is offline Aro
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:35 Visit Aro's homepage!
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I think you're right, jim_steer... I've just tested it.
Well, I'll agree with Vondrack, so... I must cool down first...

But now I'm definitively suspicious.

vondrack is offline vondrack

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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:41
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Which would, btw, make much more sense (if they didn't know what we know now) - I mean, why would CDG be so keen on getting Alphabet from us if they knew there was another civ close to them, which has this tech from get go? If I were them, I would use that immediately to lower the value/price of Alphabet in our trade...

Dominae is offline Dominae
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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:47
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Maybe they're at war...already.


Dominae

joncnunn is offline joncnunn
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Sep 2002
time: 23:26
  Old Post 18-03-2003 20:55 Visit joncnunn's homepage!
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The hill tile south of CDG's warrior on the hill blocks view of 2 south of hill 2 South of there.

CDG is probably suprized about Game Cather's new city; otherwise they (and Game Catcher) would have more techs!

Anyway, no treaties that are mutally exclusive on tech trading.

I sugest our Southern warrior go SW. (If CDG's warrior moves to that tile, move W onto the hill instead.)

 
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