18-03-2003 20:59									#31
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One of them would have had to have done something very daft or nasty for that to be the case. Also I would have thought CDG would have been sending their warrior straight at the Gamecatcher city if they were at war (Assuming they know about it of course).

Still I feel it is going to be an interesting few turns for our diplomats

	18-03-2003 21:29									#32
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Just when we thought we had a perfect treaty...

What about the possibility of Gamecatcher having found CDG?? If that is their second city then surely they did some scouting ahead. I don't buy it, I had a hunch that CDG had contact and this proves it.

EDIT: All discussion related to the Gamecatcher Alliance has a new thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=80989

Thanx

-MZ

Last edited by Master Zen on 18-03-2003 at 21:59

	19-03-2003 00:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Just when we thought we had a perfect treaty... What about the possibility of Gamecatcher having found CDG?? If that is their second city then surely they did some scouting ahead. I don't buy it, I had a hunch that CDG had contact and this proves it. EDIT: All discussion related to the Gamecatcher Alliance has a new thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=80989 Thanx -MZ

I couldn't agree more with Master Zen here! They told a bold face lie. There's no way the explored all the way through the jungle to see our borders but didn't send a unit 4 or 5 tiles South to explore. Same goes for GA; they surley scouted ahead and spotted CDG also. If CDG tries to block us, in any way, it should be contrued as a hostile act.

	19-03-2003 00:17									#34
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About the lie: I suggest we simply call them on it. They'll feel bad, and this will make them better (more trustable) partners in the long run. Of course, they could be plotting to take us out, in which case this would accomplish nothing. But I believe that they tried to jump on an opportunity and were caught in the act. Their guilt will make them better allies.


Dominae

	19-03-2003 00:39									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae About the lie: I suggest we simply call them on it. They'll feel bad, and this will make them better (more trustable) partners in the long run. Of course, they could be plotting to take us out, in which case this would accomplish nothing. But I believe that they tried to jump on an opportunity and were caught in the act. Their guilt will make them better allies. Dominae

Excellent suggestion Dom. How should we word it? Should it be a little heavy handed or a lot?

Do we say that while we feel that this is no reason to go to war, you have given us every reason to distrust you and will have to do much to regain that trust.

OR

Do we say that we know that they are liars and it would be in their best interest to make repairs to our relationship by giving us BW outright and then trading IW and The Wheel to us for Alphabet.

Or, something else entirely. If you have any suggestions towards a proposal to CDG please make it in this thread:
CDG Proposals

I would appreciate input from all as to the meat and the 'sauce' to a new proposal. With a heavy emphasis on the 'sauce' !

	19-03-2003 02:00									#36
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I would keep it to ourselves for now. It may be appropriate to mention in a little while.

I assume they are working on IW and they will trade that for Alphabet. We would not want them to be less likely to trade it with us.

Remember walk softly and carry a big stick. Well, we don't have any kind of stick yet and should not go out of our way to antagonise any other teams.

We know what their words are worth. That is what is important. It is not yet critical for us to let them know that we know, or care.

	19-03-2003 02:05									#37
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NYE is right. We must handle this situation very carefully. The reason the Lux-ND situation developed the way it did was because ND broke a treaty and relations did not take a turn for the best after that point.

	19-03-2003 02:18									#38
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Persia doesn't have any bigger a stick than we do... and we'll be able to get a stick before they will. How do you s'pose the Gamecatchers will feel about this? It's probable that Persia lied to THEM, too.

I think we should talk to our Indian neighbors about a lil' squeeze play. *THEY* are a good bit more vulnerable to Persian warmongering early on than we are, so they're likely to agree to it.

Just because early wars are unusual doesn't make them bad- we have a trading partner now if we smash Persia....and maybe we can establish a reputation for not being someone to play dirty with nice and early too.

	19-03-2003 02:33									#39
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We should see if we can first get them in line. If they're continually a pain, then we can discuss things with GCA. We have no desire to make GCA any stronger than they are, at least until we're ready to gain more from the situation than they will.

	19-03-2003 03:10									#40
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With only one warrior, they can't block us if that if that is their intention. We can get there in 5 turns max. even if they try it, and Gamecatcher will see what they are trying to do in the process. As for trades. Try to get a straight BW for cash now, is possible. No long term deals. We can use GC to squeeze them if needed.

bit off topic: One thing that is extremely likely, IMHO, is that CDG will attack CG with Immortals. The combination of close proximity to and the UU situation (they will want to attack with Immortals before they can come at them with elephants)

	19-03-2003 03:17									#41
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I think that this is really good news to us in the long run.

CDG & Gamecatcher are very close to each other. They will war....and this can only benifit us.

Treat this information as a boon. Dont start calling people liars, negotiate well with CDG & Gamecatcher and encourage a war between them.

	19-03-2003 03:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan bit off topic: One thing that is extremely likely, IMHO, is that CDG will attack CG with Immortals. The combination of close proximity to and the UU situation (they will want to attack with Immortals before they can come at them with elephants)

I agree that CDG will likely attack GCA very soon after obtaing IW since they are so close to each other. If I were CDG that is exactly what I would do. We should be aware of this early war probability as I'm sure that GCA is well aware of it to. It would be better to 'squezee' CDG with GCA rather than help CDG or standby and let CDG expand without opposition.

	19-03-2003 03:25									#43
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There is another possibility- that Persia and India have agreed to divide the continent in half at that dividing line, and Persia will head north while India heads south. Persia may have the better UU, but India has a considerably larger starting empire size....

Remember, we're making assumptions that Persia will play logically and comptently as we would play. This has already been proven to not be the case, unless by some staggering miracle they really DIDNT know that India was there - but then why did they tell us they'd explored south?

	19-03-2003 03:38									#44
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They will learn quickly. The first 25 turns of the PTW DG was quite a learning experience. Do not write off them doing anything. We will have to play the situation carefully, but don't make assumptions yet.

	19-03-2003 04:03									#45
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3050BC sent to CFC.

BW offer from CDG ignored.

	19-03-2003 05:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I agree that CDG will likely attack GCA very soon after obtaing IW since they are so close to each other. If I were CDG that is exactly what I would do. We should be aware of this early war probability as I'm sure that GCA is well aware of it to. It would be better to 'squezee' CDG with GCA rather than help CDG or standby and let CDG expand without opposition.

By that same logic, we should be preparing for war against CDG taking into account our NM-induced near-invincibility.

Depending on our reactions with GCA during contact we will judge who is best to trust but we should definitely put one against the other.

	19-03-2003 06:46									#47
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nye is right. We know we can't trust everything they say, but that's not to say we can't benefit from trades with them. As long as we stay vigilant to any trickery and analyse their statments carefully, we will always have this advantage until we can use it against them (if need be). It could certainly screw CDG right in the ear if we told another civ of their trustworthiness, cutting them out of all sorts of deals. Let's keep this secret weapon exactly that - secret, until it can be used.

Until then carry on as normal. Conveniently forget what they told us, and if they offer some lame explanation "we didn't see them until now", "our leader didn't tell us GameCatcher was there", then, publically, accept it. We should still get as much from them in trades as we can.