17-03-2003 08:10									#1
	ACTUAL : Which Deal with CDG is better for Apolytonia? Tired of ads?

This poll will help the Foreign Ministry gauge what we should negotiate with CDG. This is an opinion poll and is not binding, but hopefully will be hightly persuasive.

The following is Trip's proposed deal:

quote: We will trade them Alphabet for Bronze Working ASAP. When they complete Iron Working, they will give it to us for free in exchange for Alphabet. I originally offered them Alphabet and 20 gold immediately for BW and IW, but Kentonio reduced the offer. After that, we will research Writing, and then Map Making, while they will research the Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Buruial, and Mysticism. We will then trade all of these techs which we have completed to each other

Option A: Accept the deal as negotiated by Trip, however, add in a no-trade clause. We win out by having the most tradeable techs to sell to others.

Option B: Attempt to renegotiate this deal to give us more tech or find a way to cover things if one of us pops a goodie hut. Push for more out of this deal.

Option C: Attempt to renegotiate, however, do not trade Alphabet for Bronze Working up front, as we do not believe they are researching Alphabet. Negotiate a deal whereby our initial trade is entirely even. If we cannot make our initial deal entirely even, we should not make a deal with them.

Option D: Screw CDG. We'll negotiate again with them later when we get Writing. We don't need to give them Alphabet now for a couple of turns shaved off Bronze Working.

Please debate and suggest other options below.

--Togas

added: If you feel that more than one of the above is what we should do, please vote for the one that you feel is most important, so that we know what you feel strongest about.

	17-03-2003 08:13									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As posted in the other thread:

A variation of A and B is best. It's best to go ahead with this deal with a no-trade clause and try and cover potential "loopholes" it presents. The most important issues would be them getting goody huts and the discover of new civs, either on their side or on ours. I'll leave these details to others.

I'm not quite sure where that stance would fall into the poll...

	17-03-2003 08:20									#3
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As posted in the other thread:

"A + try for B" for me.

I would like to see a no-whoring clause to be added, definitely, plus I would try explaining our concerns regarding goody hut pops, possibly arranging a fair solution should we or them get techs from huts (perhaps offering popped techs "free share" between the two teams, making the deal actually dealing with techs that will really be researched).

But A alone would be okay with me, too.

	17-03-2003 08:21									#4
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Perhaps B is best, as it is the same deal with additions to it, rather than going backwards. A sounds great though, as it is just adding a condition and not affecting the base deal. Whatever we do owe should be careful to try and not change our minds too often, else the other teams will likely lack the want to establish and continue deals with us.

	17-03-2003 08:23									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm in favor of the trade of techs' with Persia. Which is kinda like this:

1. We give them Alphabet now and they give us BW now.

2. We will research Writing and trade that for IW, Wheel, and WC.

3. We will research Map Making and trade that for Mysticism and CB.


I guess that would fall under option A and B since it wasn't explicity delineated by either party as to whic tech should come first for what other techs.

I like the way this deal runs its couse though. Sure we give them Alphabet now for BW (they get more.) But then we get IW, WC and The Wheel for Writing (our favor). To finalize the trade we give Map Making for Mysticism and CB (their favor).

Since this deal is heavier on the back-end for them they are less likely to act hostile with us up to the point this deal is completed. If they backout in the middle I think we come away the better of the two in this deal, unless they back away right after we give them Alphabet for BW.(Which I don't think that they will do.)

So for the next 50 or so turn we have a docile persia and we have more marketable techs than they do. Especially with a 'No Trade' clause. We would easily be able to trade for Techs like HBR or Mathematics when we have Writing and Map Making.

I also feel that we would be able to finnish our (2) Techs before they finnish their (5); giving us the advantage of being able to go on to something else while they are stuck filling the order of our tech deal. We will eclispe their research in no time.

	17-03-2003 08:26									#6
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I do not trust them enough at this point (having no reason to) to believe they're researching Alphabet. Therefore all "partial tech" clauses should be removed from the deal.

I believe the deal is in their favor, and thus we should be compensated with another tech (Horseback Riding) or a Gold sum.

We should jump on any opportunity to get a no-whoring agreement on this deal. It would benefit us tremendously. If they're not willing, maybe we could sweeten our offer a bit (remove Horseback Riding, or such), whatever. We need that no-whoring clause!

Given what I've said, I'm not sure what to vote for: I could conceivably vote A, B or C (not D). This is a very difficult poll, since the options are not at all independent or mutually exclusive.


Dominae

	17-03-2003 08:30									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Alternative:

agree to research certain techs, but don't trade (or trade only for BW) until we have had enough time to reach a better conclusion or have contacted more civs. If the deal as proposed is really advantaging CDG, then such a situation can't be any worse than not accepting outright.

	17-03-2003 08:30									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

They will most likely agree to a no-trade clause simply due to the fact that they won't yet realize the power that they hold. GF might explain this to them, but we should be able to convince them to agree eventually, especially considering they have many more techs than us, and we can make it look like it would be in their favor. Be sure not to push this too much though, or they will get suspicious.

That having been said, I would like to see a fully completed draft of BF's proposal, with a no-trade clause and a anti-goody-hut-popping clause implimented.

	17-03-2003 08:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip That having been said, I would like to see a fully completed draft of BF's proposal, with a no-trade clause and a anti-goody-hut-popping clause implimented.

I'll get to work on that right away.


*bigfree1 running around shouting "Togas...I need your help!"

Seriously though, I think that such a thing wouldn't surprise CDG in the least bit; I'll bet that they will be expecting it. I will ask Togas to give me a hand on this, if he would be so kind.

	17-03-2003 08:36									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Get more. We must guard against hut popping and contact with other teams that would see most of the tech they are supplying provided virtually for free to them.

	17-03-2003 08:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Get more. We must guard against hut popping and contact with other teams that would see most of the tech they are supplying provided virtually for free to them.

Those are the biggest loopholes that this agreement would hold, which is why I pointed them out specifically.

	17-03-2003 12:50									#12
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A no-whoring clause will avoid the latter, as for hut popping, who are we to avoid that, plus, how will we know if they pop a hut they'll get an tech or gold or whatever for example, they could easily lie and we would not find out at least immediately (unless they get barbs ) ?

Perhaps a "forced-sale" clause. If they pop a hut which gives them a tech which is on their "trade list", they are obliged to tell us about it and sell it at a previously-agreed on price (based on the tech worth for example).

This'll get us the tech and will compensate their luck (or the other way around)

	17-03-2003 15:41									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I posted this in "the other thread" already. Since more discussion is going on here, too, I'll post it again:

--------------------------

Wow. I go to sleep for just one night, and there are already 3 pages of discussion... !

First, a Question. What is this deal?

quote: Originally posted by Trip We will trade them Alphabet for Bronze Working ASAP. When they complete Iron Working, they will give it to us for free in exchange for Alphabet.

As I understand it, we give Alphabet and they give BW and IW, right?

Now, the conclusions:

This is a moderately good deal (the importance of Alphabet has been stressed already) for us, if it were to be done all at the same time. However, in the thread 'Lessons of Lux' it can be read that giving techs for trust, or for some future tech trade (as it is proposed here) is a very bad thing to do. Why? Simply because the situation might change. A goody hut may give one party the tech that was promised; a third civ might wander in and offer the tech; an iron resource may pop up at the 'wrong' spot, etc.

Trust has already been damaged (slightly) since we suspect them to be lying about what they are researching.

The deal about researching all the other techs stretches quite far into the future.

BFM's advice:

Please do not negotiate tech deals that far into the future!

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...meaning I'll go for option C or D, though I do not agree with the wording of option D. "Screwing" a civ is never good. Please make neutral options in polls!

	18-03-2003 12:08									#14
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There is a significantly reworked treaty draft available here. Continue the discussion over there, please.

Thank you.