18-03-2003 11:18									#1
	FA: Elucidia Diplomacy Thread Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here's the latest from you friendly neighborhood Ambassador. This proposal addresses some of the concerns mentioned in the various threads on the first. Comments are welcome.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings from the land of Apolyton

We propose the following:

Immediately upon both parties agreeing to this proposal:

A non-aggression pact for the duration of this agreement shall be in effect. It will expire 10 turns after the completion of this agreement.

Part I
Apolyton gives CDG Alphabet.
CDG gives Apolyton Bronze Working.
This is to be done immediately after both parties agree on this proposal.

Part II
Apolyton gives CDG Writing.
CDG gives Apolyton Iron Working and The Wheel.
This exchange is to take place immediately after all three techs are completed.

These are the further requirements of the agreement:

No Trade Clause
Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for the duration of this agreement.

The Goodie Hut Clause
Because of the extreme likelihood that one of our nations will uncover one of the listed trade technologies before this agreement expires; this clause has been added as insurance to help either party.

Should either party discover any technology in any "Goodie Hut" during the duration of this agreement that party shall immediately give the technology to the other party.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be any of the following: Iron Working, Wheel; CDG shall additionally research Warrior Code which shall substitute for the discovered tech, and give it to Apolyton in exchange for Writing.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be any Writing; Apolyton shall additionally research Warrior Code and give it to CDG in exchange for Iron Working and Wheel.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be anything else than what is proposed in the trades above; then the Civ that receives it must give that Tech to the other Civ, but is free to trade it with whomever they chose as long as they give it to the other Civ first, and no further research requirements shall be made.

Furthermore, should any additional Goodie Huts reveal, after one party has been required to research Warrior Code, technology that is included in this agreement, the party who acquired it shall immediately give it to the other party, however, no further research requirements shall be made.

Expiration
This agreement expires 10 turns after the final technology has been given to either party and neither party has any remaining obligation.

This is the agreement in whole.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once all parties have concluded the agreement as a whole, and both are satisfied that the agreement was executed fairly and within the intent of the agreement, we will consider further trade of Map Making. Details on this trade will be made later and there is no obligation by either party to agree to it at this moment

Respectfully
bigfree1
Apolytonian Ambassador

Last edited by on 18-03-2003 at 11:30

	18-03-2003 11:26									#2
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I think this should satisfy our concerns for a shorter agreement that is more balanced.

You'll want to axe the 2nd to last paragraph that begins "Thank you for offering..." it seems to belong in a separate PM that we send to them a turn or two from now ... after we verify that they're respecting our borders.

Any serious objections from the peanut gallery?

--Togas

p.s. Yes, this is another new thread, however, this will now be the ONLY thread we use to discuss CDG issues, with the exception of occasional poll threads. I have asked Vondrack to lock the other threads. Please continue and keep your conversations here.

	18-03-2003 11:35									#3
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I think this proposal pretty much amends the discussion found earlier on the other -ahem- 6 threads relating to CDG diplomacy issues.

Reafirming what Togas said, and what I had previously expressed in the Read this please thread, LET'S KEEP NEW THREAD POSTING TO A MINIMUM. All CDG-related discussion shall henceforth be confined to this thread, and this thread alone. Polls shall be posted only when absolutely necessary and only by members of the Foreign Ministry.

Let's keep this in order and do things professionaly.

-Master Zen

Last edited by Master Zen on 18-03-2003 at 12:36

	18-03-2003 12:54									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, as I was happy even with the previous proposal, it is sure no surprise that I see no problem with this one either. I do admit that this one is simpler and thus easier to follow, giving both parties more flexibility.

No objections.

Oh... maybe just a little bit of my usual nit-picking: "... be Writing", not "be any Writing", IMHO.

	18-03-2003 13:40									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is better. Much better.

Far less to go wrong, and a semblance of equality.

	18-03-2003 13:53									#6
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Let's go with this. It's certainly not as ambitious as the first version, but it's probably one that is acceptable to us and CDG.

If I am CDG, I am inclined to accept this agreement. It benefits both parties. The only touchy issue though is, IMHO - the Goodie Hut Clause. If what CDG is saying is true, that they have a few Huts to pop, then it may not be ideal to share the Tech with Apolyton.

But anyway, it's now time for Action. No more debate. Just issue the proposal and wait for their response.

Have a nice day.

	18-03-2003 14:08									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I feel this is a lot better not as ambitious maybe but more workable.

	18-03-2003 14:16									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What happens if both civs pop a hut? We both research WarriorCode..?

How are we to check whether CDG has popped a hut?

Please reword this (grammar check!):

quote: Should the Goodie Hut technology be any Writing;

	18-03-2003 17:22									#9
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So this is binding us to getting these techs from CDG? What if we found another civ that had some of the same techs for a better deal? Does this open up the possibility of not popping huts so any benefit does not immediately go to CDG as well? Or is it that we wouldn't do this anyway, given the ineffectiveness of popping for techs as the game progresses?

And should we define non-aggression pact for CDG? It is a term familiar in the PtW game, but they may not have the same definitions we do.

All thoughts that bounced to mind whilst reading the agreement so far.

	18-03-2003 19:13									#10
	Re: FA: Elucidia Diplomacy Thread Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 No Trade Clause Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for the duration of this agreement.

This is not equivalent to the standard no-whoring clause. Depending on "duration" of the agreement, either party can still sell the other party's techs when this "duration" is over, and make promises to do so in the meantime (we could, for example, promise to give Iron Working to some other team we meet, just as long as we do it at some later date). Assuming the "duration" is until part 2 is complete, this simply will not do. We want to agree never to trade our respective techs around ever, barring war between us and CDG.

This is quite an obvious loophole, one that would be all-too-easy to exploit.


Dominae

	18-03-2003 19:20									#11
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Just to bring your attention to it, there is a new development that may well invalidate much of this. Upon moving a warrior south, vondrack has posted a map showing another civ, possibly the Indians, just south of where the CDG warrior is. This may well mean they were deliberately lying about their info that there was nothing south of them, and at the least allows us more options than just what we have above with CDG.

They may be untrustworthy, and thus we need to reexamine all options.

	18-03-2003 19:23									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

BTW, here is the link to vondrack's news and the map he posted, in the Turn 20 thread.

The (possibly awful) truth of CDG's reliability - cue Gamecatcher.

	18-03-2003 20:24									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

This can be interesting too.

Don't trust Persia at all...

Edited: Forget it. They can be telling the truth, after all.

Last edited by Aro on 18-03-2003 at 20:40

	18-03-2003 21:58									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Any discussion related to the Gamecatcher Alliance now has a new thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=80989



-MZ

	18-03-2003 22:06									#15
	Remove this text

It's a pity it's not 40 turns in the future so we could teach them a little lesson about being honest.

	18-03-2003 23:59									#16
	Re: Re: FA: Elucidia Diplomacy Thread Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: No Trade Clause Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for the duration of this agreement.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae This is not equivalent to the standard no-whoring clause. Depending on "duration" of the agreement, either party can still sell the other party's techs when this "duration" is over, and make promises to do so in the meantime (we could, for example, promise to give Iron Working to some other team we meet, just as long as we do it at some later date). Assuming the "duration" is until part 2 is complete, this simply will not do. We want to agree never to trade our respective techs around ever, barring war between us and CDG. This is quite an obvious loophole, one that would be all-too-easy to exploit. Dominae

I don't think that there's a loophole. This statement is very clear. This is statement listed under the heading: "These are the further requirements of the agreement:" ; it is among many other requirements as well.

quote: Expiration This agreement expires 10 turns after the final technology has been given to either party and neither party has any remaining obligation.

	19-03-2003 00:01									#17
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Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification bf1. But is this what we want? I mean, maybe we should sign a perpetual no-whoring agreement for the techs involved in this deal.


Dominae

	19-03-2003 00:14									#18
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Well, now that the situation has taken a turn I'm not supporting this proposal at this time. I think CDG may have lied to us and we can't trust to recieve any Tech's from them in the future. They may just take Alphabet and run.

I'm going to wait on this one; let's see if we can contact GA first; maybe express our concerns over CDG just a bit.

	19-03-2003 00:41									#19
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Yes, we'd do better to wait. We might get a better deal from GA anyways.

Was a shame...the proposal was pretty darn good

I also agree that we must mention to CDG that we won't tolerate any further lies in the future. We have to catch them in the lie of course, and then suggest this diplomatically.

	19-03-2003 01:05									#20
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I think that we have already caught them in a lie.(99% sure) I think we should send them a message stating such. They should be told that we think it was foolish of them to do this, but we understand that they are relatively new to this arena and though they would have to do much to regain our trust it can be had for a price. We should convince them it would be better for them to repair relations with a close neighbor (us) rather than have a potential enemy who is already very suspicious of their words.

	19-03-2003 01:40									#21
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My thoughts.

CDG lied point blank to us. 100% on that. They told us that there was nothing to the South of them but jungle and coast. Seeing that bend SEward in the coast demonstrates a blatant lie.

The chances that CDG is bluffing have increased. There is a chance that they have not contacted GCA, but it is small. It would then be evident that they were unable to obtain Alphabet from GCA, or perhaps have a trade lined up, such as Iron Working for Alphabet. Most likely, CDG is trying to 'upgrade' the value of Iron Working by getting Alphabet on the cheap and then getting another tech for IW. That would be very bad for everyone, except for CDG.

I am thinking that we should make no trades with CDG prior to contacting GCA, unless they want to accept 10 gold for BW. Contact with GCA should be soon, assuming war does not break out if CDG tries to kill Wbigfree to prevent contact.

I am perfectly content to finish BW on our own. That should be in another 7 turns, less if we can conduct a trade with GCA and they have it.

	19-03-2003 02:01									#22
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I think that we have already caught them in a lie.(99% sure) I think we should send them a message stating such. They should be told that we think it was foolish of them to do this, but we understand that they are relatively new to this arena and though they would have to do much to regain our trust it can be had for a price. We should convince them it would be better for them to repair relations with a close neighbor (us) rather than have a potential enemy who is already very suspicious of their words.

and who will have NM's very soon!

	19-03-2003 02:10									#23
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NOW, my friends, will you listen to the words of the warmonger?



We have caught them boldly in a double-deal. We can even tell the Gamecatchers the same. They were trying to play both ends against the middle.

We have another trading partner now. Hell, why don't we offer to let the Gamecatchers keep that land and simply help us remove some poor-lying amateurs?

I think we should demand some answers from the Persians...or demand something a bit more concrete as a sign of good faith.

	19-03-2003 02:36									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Not yet my warmongering friend.

We still have no ability to go to war with them. We have 1 city and 2 Warriors, only 1 of which is usable. Perhaps we can talk again in 40 turns, when we can afford to build units more.

	19-03-2003 05:48									#25
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Well, we still don't have another trading partner... and we don't know how close they are with CDG. Perhaps they are even scheming both against us... (something I wouldn't discard since one civ alone could not take on an Apolytonian Carthage)

Trust me F-P, I'm in favor of war but let's not rush things so prematurely and foolishly. Unlike real life, diplomacy has a lot of chances in a demo game.

	19-03-2003 06:14									#26
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They do not have a clue about this game and how to play it out. That is my opinion.

They are quite demanding when they are in no position to demand. They expect us to bottle ourselves up in the North and allow them a monopoly on contact(s). They don't have a clue that that means war if they persist, because gaining contacts is a hill we must be prepared to die on.

My guess, war within 24 hours. Unless they are all bark and no bite.

	19-03-2003 06:30									#27
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We must get contact with GCA as soon as is at all possible. They feel they are "returning" our impolite gesture in a fair manner. We cannot back down, and I don't think they will.

	19-03-2003 06:54									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Please remember we do not yet have contact with GameCatcher. It is wholly possible CDG will try and get them on their side through another lie - perhaps we about-faced on a deal with CDG, or some other reason.

We must be able to convince GameCatcher not to totally trust the word of CDG, without ourselves looking untrustworthy. And above all we need to know if we are facing one potential enemy, or two.

	19-03-2003 10:48									#29
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After a long and extremely exhausting chat with CDG in which NYE took the lead negotiator role (because he has far more patience than I, and I've ticked them off already) with Trip's assistance due to his friendship and superior contacts ... the following was, well, somewhat agreed upon:

They won't declare war on us if we move south.
We won't move south for 2 turns.
We won't backtrack back to their city, we will instead continue south of GCA.
If we get any new contacts while exploring, we'll tell CDG.
Non-Aggression Pact for 30 turns (renegotiable after 25).
AND ... they want a settlement border. A line in the jungle, so to speak. We want to merely agree to not settle near each other's capitals, and we proposed several "radius" plans that they rejected.

All of this was done through very heated debate in our channel, and very patient and slow trodding proposals and negotiations with them in another channel. In the end we came to no actual agreement, merely agreeing to continue the negotiations tomorrow. All in all it was a very exhausting and nervewracking experience. I am proud of Apolytonia for our willingness to keep talking as I personally found it difficult to stomach their constant additions and deal-breakers, and I actually do this kind of stuff for a living (Of course, in my profession, if we can't agree we just go to trial and fight it out. )

We need to send them a written copy of our proposal. Here is what I have prepared. Feel free to add suggestions that better reflect tonight's negotiation.

APOLYTONIA AND ELUCIDIA HEREBY AGREE:

That we are brothers, separated by only a jungle, and bound together in our common desire to survive and prosper. We wish for there to be peace between us, and in order to ensure that peace we hereby agree to the following:

1) There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter the borders of the other party without permission.

2) Our settlers shall not settle within the borders of the other nation, nor shall they settle in any place that is 5 tiles or less from the capital of the other party.

3) Apolyton shall send no further units to travel south of CDG's capital, nor shall CDG send any units north of Apolyton's capital. As for the warrior BigFree, he shall remain in place until turn 23, and at that time he may move south to make contact with the Gamecatcher Alliance. Once this contact is made, he shall not retrace his steps, he may only explore south of the GCA nation.

4) Should the warrior BigFree make contact with any other nations, Apolyton shall immediately inform CDG of this fact.

5) This agreement shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed.

--Togas

	19-03-2003 10:52									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I must first express my disapointment at the way the chat that just finished was approached. While it wasn't a disaster we didn't use the leverage we had at the time to get CDG to let us continue South. We have the terrain advantage and position on their Warrior; no to mention they're was an angry barb on the hill just North of 'Arnold' that they would have to deal with. I feel that these points were not taken into consideration in our negotiations with CDG.

CDg's main contention seems to be preventing us from contacting GCA anytime soon; maybe they don't want us trading Pottery to them as they would like to do. There's so many reasons for CDG to not want us to have contact with GCA that is would take days to cover the possibilities (at least at the rate I type )

Why are we afraid that CDG would decalre war on us? Are we afraid that they would attack BigFree with Arnold? That would be just silly of them; we have the clear advantage there. They are bluffing 100%; this is in-line with their lying to truth ratio (which doesn't look very good.)

They are very afraid of us 'squeezing' them. If they had good relations with GCA they wouldn't be so afraid of this. I think relations has soured between the two, for who knows what reason, and now they can see the dreaded pinch comming along.

If we contact GCA and they say "Those CDG'ers are blankety blanks," we could join them and litterally crush CDG out of existence. This would be a reason for them to act this hostile towards us at this point; they want to prevent our meeting for as long as possible. Maybe until they find out if they have Iron or not within their civ's borders.

I believe this 'pinch' they feel is because they have no land to expand to East or West; only North and South. With North being us and South being GCA; CDG is in a predicament pretty early on here. They give plenty of clues to this 'pinch' by their actions and words.

I say that CDG does not deserve a NAP nor should we wait 3 (The 2 in the proposed agreement +1 because they move first) turns. They could finish IW by that time and upgrade a warrior or two and come out swinging, surely preventing our contact by that point!

Screw CDG; they do not deserve anything from us but contempt. The continually stalled in negotiaitons, yet they acted peturbed when any discussion was held on our part. Let them start a war; see how far they get against NM's stacked on their Iron deposit!