17-03-2003 08:33									#1
	Is cheating morally wrong? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

DA OR NYET?

	17-03-2003 08:44									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I voted no assuming that it a single player game we are talking about. If not, then I reserve the right to change my vote to yes.

John

	17-03-2003 08:44									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by John-SJ I voted no assuming that it a single player game we are talking about. If not, then I reserve the right to change my vote to yes. John

Vote NON!!!!

And yes, i'm taling about single player.

	17-03-2003 10:47									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Pfft.
If it doesn't affect anybody else then to each his own...
Of course, one who cheats, exploits loopholes, AI's, etc and then complains about something being too easy is really just cheating oneself...

	17-03-2003 11:29									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I started a poll yay back about if people cheated. Most said they cheated after completing the game. If they do this then Nyet.

	17-03-2003 13:43									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It is really not possible to 'cheat' in SP - you simply decide that a particular exploit is within the compass of the game for yourself. After all SP is purely about self-gratification - if it works for you then it is OK.

Cheating only applies when there is another person involved - and now one is trying to succeed by means not necessarily available to your opponent - of course exploits can be agreed upon - but then they are by definition not cheats - but IMO any exploit not explicitly agreed with all participants is a cheat and anyone who uses them is morally bankrupt.

OK - I seem to be in the minority here - but this is no 'high moral ground' - we are talking about GAMES - that are PLAYED for FUN - losing is not the end of the world, it is a learning experience that we hope to reverse next time - if we cheat, we learn nothing - and if we are caught there is no next time.

SG[1]

	17-03-2003 13:47									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Hmm, we're talking about games here. Is it morally wrong to use nukes in Civ? Or Genejack Factories?

I have no morals anyway

-Jam

	17-03-2003 13:53									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Even if it was multiplayer i would still say its not always morally wrong, for one reason, to take revenge on the cheaters or really dodgy "l33t" players who like to lord it up, they dont like that. Some of the most fun games ive had online/LAN on any game is when everyone was obviously using cheats (maybe because we KNEW it was even ground then), using cheats on the unknowing is bad form though.

Singleplayer is never morally wrong.

	17-03-2003 14:37									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I voted Yes, since you didn't say anything about if it was SP or MP, and cheating in MP is defently wrong... while if you cheat in SP, you only cheat yourself...

	17-03-2003 14:53									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

SP - Do what you like, as long as you enjoy it, and don't pass off your accomplishments as not using whatever 'cheat' you employ.

MP - You are scum; you are morally bankrupt, and we should all come round your house and give you a damn good kicking.

	17-03-2003 15:32									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

All MP games are ****ed up now anyway, if you want a sure fire fair game then play with someone you trust. The cloest youll get to a fair game on a public server is if everone is cheating.

	17-03-2003 15:41									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Don't be so cynical.

Unfortunately there is some truth in that though, you always have to be cautious...........but the vast majority of gamers just want a good game. The detrimental effect of cheaters is more than proportional to their size as a proportion of all gamers.

	17-03-2003 15:56									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike The detrimental effect of cheaters is more than proportional to their size as a proportion of all gamers.

True, playing against a cheat often breeds another angry cheater.

If only all SP cheats were totally disabled, we'd all become more honest, or at least better players before we started playing online. It should be a prerequisite to complete the game fairly before you open the MP portion.

	17-03-2003 17:02									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Cheating is boring.

	17-03-2003 17:13									#15
	Support Apolyton

[dbtsverse]
If cheating is evil, and the programmers allow, and knowingly create these cheats, would that make programmers the source of evil?
[/dbtsverse]

	17-03-2003 20:37									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In single player games, I don't think it's immoral. It's your game, you money*, and your time, play anyway that gives you some enjoyment.

About the only cheat I use regularly is using an editor to give myself life and death books simulataneously in MoM.





*Unless you pirated it, so you might as well cheat and make your corruption complete.

	17-03-2003 22:00									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Vote NON!!!! And yes, i'm taling about single player.

quote: I voted Yes, since you didn't say anything about if it was SP or MP, and cheating in MP is defently wrong... while if you cheat in SP, you only cheat yourself...

You should've read the thread....

	17-03-2003 22:21									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes, you wrote it a few posts later, but I always only read first post, before I vote

	17-03-2003 23:37									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I can't see why anyone would find SP cheating "immoral." If I've bought the game, I can do whatever the hell I want with it.

As for MP...yeah, that sucks, of course. But it's only mildly immoral. It's not like committing adultery, after all.

	18-03-2003 06:59									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

I voted yes, but only because I misread the question.

In sp, there are many different goals you might have for that game, such as having fun, discovering the internal game mechanics, trying to get to the ending(s), etc. If cheating helps you to achieve your particular goal, more power to you. If it doesn't help you to achieve your particular goal but you cheat anyway, then you are somewhat stupid but not immoral.

In MP of course, cheating is plain wrong unless it is "understood" to be ok amongst the people you play with.

	18-03-2003 07:58									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Not in single player. And sometimes not in MP.

	18-03-2003 09:31									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I voted yes, but only because I misread the question.

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who's read DrSpike's sig.

[Edit: Er, his old sig. ]

	18-03-2003 12:22									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

i normally don't cheat at all in single player games, and never in multiplayer(but i can have fun playing against cheaters in fps games). lately, as i've logged more and more hours in eu2 i sometimes use a few cheats. usually just the diplomat/traders/colonist/stability/reform cheats or such(almost never bb points though). eu2 can be ungodly slow sometimes and this sort of speeds it up. plus the random events really get on my nerves sometimes since they are random!. i also edit save games to changes things for both myself and the ai but that's more like scenario making. basically i cheat in eu2 to enhance my gaming experience. i wasn't interested in cheating at all until i had pretty much beaten the game several times.

	18-03-2003 12:28									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It's not like committing adultery, after all.

No, that would be much more fun.

-Jam

	18-03-2003 15:34									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ravagon This shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody who's read DrSpike's sig. [Edit: Er, his old sig. ]

My old sig. was a Keynes quote, and I don't think he and Skanky were acquainted. You probably mean my comment quoted in Skanky's own sig.

	18-03-2003 18:07									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I find that beating cheaters by playing fair is far more gratifying than beating fair players by cheating.

	18-03-2003 22:39									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I prefer to beat cheaters by cheating more intelligently.

	19-03-2003 02:26									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

cheating is morally wrong.

	19-03-2003 02:50									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SP - yes, if comparing results with others
MP - yes