17-03-2003 11:32									#1
	Draft of Proposal to CDG (Persian's) Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Here's the latest draft of the proposal to CDG. Togas has helped me tremendously on this, so he deserves some of the credit (and the balme, if you don't like it. ) Feel free to comment.

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Greetings from the land of Apolyton

We propose the following:

Immediately upon both parties agreeing to this proposal:

A non-aggression pact for the duration of this agreement shall be in effect. It will expire 10 turns after the completion of this agreement. It may be extended at the request of both parties 5 turns before it expires and would be considered a separate and new agreement.

Apolyton gives CDG Alphabet.
CDG gives Apolyton Bronze Working.

"Give" as used in this document means that the team will offer the item to the other team, and then hit "accept" on the Diplomacy screen.

Part I
Apolyton agrees to give CDG Writing on the turn Apolyton acquires it.
CDG agrees to give Apolyton Iron Working, The Wheel, and Warrior Code on the turn that each and any of these technologies are acquired.

Once all parties have given all of the above technologies, the following terms come into effect:

Part II
Apolyton agrees to give CDG Mapmaking, as long as Part I has been fully satisfied.
CDG agrees to give Apolyton Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism so long as Part I has been fully satisfied.
These trades are to take place on concurrent turns with each team sending the Technologies to each other in one agreement on these concurrent turns.

No Trade Clause
Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for the duration of this agreement.

The Goodie Hut Clause
Because of the extreme likelihood that one of our nations will uncover one of the listed trade technologies before this agreement expires, this clause has been added as insurance to help the unlucky party.

Should either party discover any technology in a "Goodie Hut" during the duration of this agreement that party shall give the technology to the other party.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be any of the following: Iron Working, Wheel, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism; CDG shall additionally research Horseback Riding and/or give it to Apolyton on the turn it is acquired or the turn in which this clause is activated.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be any of the following: Alphabet, Writing, Mapmaking; Apolyton shall additionally research Horseback Riding and/or give it to CDG on the turn it is acquired or the turn in which this clause is activated.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be anything else than what is proposed in the trades above; then the Civ that receives it must give that Tech to the other Civ, but is free to trade it with whomever they chose as long as they give it to the other Civ first, and no further research requirements shall be made.

Furthermore, should any additional Goodie Huts reveal, after one party has been required to research Horseback Riding, technology that is included in this agreement, the party who acquired it shall immediately give it to the other party, however, no further research requirements shall be made.

Expiration
This agreement expires 10 turns after the final technology has been given to either party and neither party has any remaining obligation.

This is the agreement in whole.
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On a separate note; some of our team members were wondering why Persia wasn’t seeking IW since they already had the prerequisite Tech. To most on our team it seemed a foregone conclusion that a Persian Civ without Iron isn’t exactly Persia! Would you care to enlighten these fellows a bit?

Thank you for offering to respect our borders, but frankly, we haven't seen any of your troops besides Arnold. What’s this wondering units name anyways? We plan to move our warrior, Bigfree, South and away from your border as requested, we do so out of mutual respect for each others borders. Respecting ones borders will go far with our team.

Respectfully
bigfree1
Apolytonian Ambassador

EDIT: SP
EDIT: Changed Wording in Part 2 (noted below)

Last edited by on 18-03-2003 at 06:03

	17-03-2003 12:54									#2
	Support Apolyton

I will not stand in the way of this, if they accept it. I see Togas has done good work.

However, if they are bluffing, and they are deceiving us, I will lead the chorus calling for their annihilation. Let them attempt to mine Iron from under Mercs.

I shall watch the tech rates each turn with great interest.

	17-03-2003 13:24									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither However, if they are bluffing, and they are deceiving us, I will lead the chorus calling for their annihilation. Let them attempt to mine Iron from under Mercs.

I almost want to toss aside the whole proposal simply to see this occur.

Let me say up front that I am not 100% behind this mammoth proposal, mostly because I'm generally a bit more conservative in my proposals and I've never done anything remotely as involved as this before. This proposal is virtually a full fledged tech alliance with a few safeguards that should hopefully keep us from getting screwed. I generally prefer simple even exchanges to deals like this, but this is such an extraordinary deal that the diplomat in me feels like a moth attracted to light. I'm sucked in by the magnitude.

Note: In the end, they win out by spending slightly less in research (although I full expect the Goodie Hut clause to kick in and give us the edge), but we win out in the tech trade market. We will have the marketable techs, they will have the simple starters that everyone else already has.

Assuming, of course, that we don't have a neighbor. If we do have a neighbor, this agreement is an interesting way of screwing them. CDG & us won't have any reason to trade with the neighbor as we'll get all of our techs via treaty. That limits us to trading tech for gold, contacts, & later maps with the neighbor. Not a horrible proposition, but not ideal. But there's always the world after Mapmaking and there's always Math and Horseback Riding (if CDG doesn't have to get it for us).

I feel like this is a marriage we're entering into with CDG. We may as well send over our oldest daughter with our dowery of Alphabet. Of course, this could end in a messy divorce around Mapmaking or sooner. Getting ourselves out of this relationship could be interesting (Ooo ... Mercs fortified on Iron Mountains!) ... but getting "into bed" with CDG may also ensure that their immortals go harass the neighbors.

--Togas

	17-03-2003 13:41									#4
	Got spare money?

The proposal is looking good

	17-03-2003 14:01									#5
	Remove this text

Nothing I would like to change/add. Very good stuff, guys!

I do agree that it is a mammoth project, but a well thought-out one. If we are alone on a single landmass, then it is definitely the only way to not fall behind the rest of the world hopelessly. If we are not alone, then it is definitely a great way to make sure their Immortals pay a visit to someone else.

Again, for a job very well done!

As a sidenote, I do agree with those saying they would call for a complete annihilation of Persia in case they choose to betray us. I would fully support it then, as much as I consider myself a non-agressive player.

When talking to them about the proposal, I would also point out that the goody hut clause actually helps make sure we maximize our combined hut tech outcome, as we would never pop the same tech out of two huts.

	17-03-2003 15:09									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A very ambitious treaty
A few questions:
1. How long do you project that this treaty will last?
2. If we meet another civ and trade Writing for say mathematics, we will not have to give CDG mathematics correct?
3. If so how would we prove that mathematics was not from a goody hut?
4. How would we prove that CDG has traded a tech they have gained from us with a third party or even tell if we haven't contacted said third party?
5. Will we be having third party observers (i.e. someone from the UN that is not playing in the game) in on the treaty to verify its existence so that if CDG **** us over then everyone knows we are engaged in a justified war and not just being needlessly vicious?
6. Can we have a clause about allowing Banana missionaries to spread the good word among their people

	17-03-2003 15:47									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A very bad proposal. Way too far into the future. If we're on a landmass with other civs, they'll disturb this project one way or another. If we're not, we have plenty of time to work out a deal before we meet any other civs (i.e. before we get behind in tech). Just make sure that we're not researching the same tech.

	17-03-2003 17:37									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

We are locking ourselves into a long term partnership here. I would rather explore further and seek other opportunites with other civs.

If we are alone, it wont be too hard to reserect the deal. They will need us as much as we need them.

	17-03-2003 18:00									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes. The deal sounds good on paper (well written), but one of the things the PTWG has taught us is that the game actually moves VERY quickly and can go in directions that we don't even consider. Long term deals like this are more risk than what its worth.

	17-03-2003 18:09									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree, perhaps we should split part I and part II into two seperate deals with part II only being confirmed once part I is complete. This leave us free to make deals with other people a bit earlier.

	17-03-2003 19:50									#11
	Got spare money?

It would be best to split things up. As I pointed out in another thread, most of the guys at CDG are ameteurs and not as experienced as most of us here, either with PTW PBEM or especially with DGs.

This means two things:

A) It will be easier to get them to agree to things.

B) Until they learn about how diplomacy works, they may be tempted to break or re-negotiate the agreement.

Making sure that B doesn't happen is a priority, though we have to be very careful since they don't yet have a feel for the diplomatic atmosphere of these games.

	18-03-2003 00:09									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If they break off the agreement they will suffer the most dire consequences!

I think they will agree.

Note that they may be tempted to not agree with the goody hut clause since our techs are worth much more than theirs, if they get one of ours, we only give horseback riding to them?

	18-03-2003 00:16									#13
	Remove this text

Vox "agreed" to a pre-done deal with Lux as well, but they later went back on the terms. So even if they give it an okay, it does not mean we're out of the woods yet...

	18-03-2003 00:30									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm thinking that a CDG-favouring part 3 is precisely the incentive for them NOT to back out.

If we only go with parts 1 and 2 then they might back out...

If they get contact with another civ they'll back out anyway or won't agree outright. During negotiations we may be able to percieve their attitude and perhaps figure out if they already have contact or not (not likely but possible)

	18-03-2003 03:16									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I'm thinking that a CDG-favouring part 3 is precisely the incentive for them NOT to back out. If we only go with parts 1 and 2 then they might back out... If they get contact with another civ they'll back out anyway or won't agree outright. During negotiations we may be able to percieve their attitude and perhaps figure out if they already have contact or not (not likely but possible)

Exactly; good points Master Zen!

This agreement swings the Tech balances back and forth they do better at first (BW for Alphabet), then we do Better (Writing for IW, WC and The Wheel), and finally they get the better (Map Making for CB and Mysticism)

The agreement also gives them the adavntage of ahving samller but more numerous Techs to trade; where we get larger but less in total, Techs to trade.

I think we come out ahead becaus of this last satement; our Tech's are more marketable than their's.

Plus if Persia agrees to this, they become docile towards us and less of a worry to us when we are building our Kingdom. They will still have to worry about what's South and West of them. I'd bet we go two more Civ's in those directions to deal with on this Continent.

	18-03-2003 03:23									#16
	Put an end to popups!

My only concern is that the long duration of the tech alliance will hurt us in the long run, especially if 3- or 4-way tech trading occurs between other civs.

	18-03-2003 03:37									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan My only concern is that the long duration of the tech alliance will hurt us in the long run, especially if 3- or 4-way tech trading occurs between other civs.

Yes it seems pretty long...but I feel that we will be able to complete research on our two Techs before they complete research on their five Techs. This will give us an advantage of being able to research something else while they are still trying to fulfill the agreement. We come out ahead.

	18-03-2003 05:19									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

So far, all I have read is whether it is beneficial for Apolyton to sign the Agreement, and whether CDG will break it.

But we should consider if CDG will sign this in the first place. To do this, we have to step into their shoes,

(I am repeating/stealing this)
Part I:

Bronze Working: 3
Alphabet: 5

CDG up 2 points.

Part II:

Writing: 8
Iron Working: 6
The Wheel: 4
Warrior Code: 3

Apolyton up 5 points.

Part III:

Map Making: 12
Ceremonial Burial: 2
Mysticism: 4

CDG up 6 points.

Why should CDG commit themselves, especially if they are going to be 5 points down (-3 Pts if you add Part I) ? Just as we are expecting to find other Civs South of CDG, they may have already found or expecting to find other Civs around us.

I don't know if this is possible. Can we come out with a formulae to link Tech points to Gold ? We can agree with CDG on a general research path, and agree to trade whatever that we have research or found using this formulae.

Other thoughts :

1. If we move Warrior Code to Part III, then Part I and Part II combined will be balance. No gain for either.

2. This has probably been discussed before. When the Agreement is signed, what if CDG turn down their Research (luxury) Indicator to 10% Science. This would slow down the research significantly. Or worse, they could research Techs not in the Agreement, and we will end up waiting forever for the Tech, esp. in Part III.

Have a good day.

	18-03-2003 05:28									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If they're not agreeable with the terms they've agreed to, we could coerce them a bit.

	18-03-2003 06:07									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Notes to the 2nd edit:

A change in the proposal was made to change the wording of the third(Reads as Part 2 in agreement) part of the trade so that it reads that both Civ's trade (Map Making for CB and Mysticism) at the same time and not when each one is finished. If CDG would somehow back out of this, for whatever reasons, we would have control of Map Making until they gave us CB and Mysticism.

	18-03-2003 06:35									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I am still on the fence with this proposal, as I admire the ambitiousness and rapid tech advancement this will encourage, while I fear that we are still without enough information to truely gage if this deal is in our best interest. And I hate making decisions without all of the facts before me.

Excellent points have been made by many parties about this proposal. Now I invite anyone who would like to discuss it with me further to meet in the ApolytonISDG chatroom ... I will try to camp out in there over the next 4-6 hours.

I plan to make a final decision tonight, so BigFree1 can email/pm the offer to them if we make it by tomorrow.

--Togas

	18-03-2003 11:57									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OK, everybody, time to reduce the number of threads dealing with the CDG treaty. The most recent draft as of now is here, so comment over there, please.