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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by CerberusIV
Either of these options would "improve" the AI but not handicap the human. Most of the comments against making Navigation mandatory are based on this change being a limitation on the human - so a better approach IMHO is to boost the AI instead.
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It is very difficult (as in impossible) to boost the AI without also boosting the human player. For instance, the "doubled Specialists" change certainly makes the AI slightly more effective, but the human can also exploit the change quite well. The goal is to make changes such that the AI benefits more than the human, and doubled Specialists (I believe) is an example of this.
But I see no reason why "handicapping" the human player is also not a valid option. This is already done in such changes as the increased OCN, where it takes longer before the FP is available to be built. Notice that this "handicap" is not all that great, and most players are willing to live with it.
I believe the change to Navigation "handicaps" the player in a similar way. From the discussion on this thread and the Navigation poll, it seems players research Navigation independently of whether it is mandatory or required. Therefore I cannot see how this would affect strategy very much.
And by restricting the human's trading potential, the AI would be improved (if indirectly).
Dominae
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CerberusIV
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I think there is a bigger issue here in that there are a lot of optional techs in the medieval period, more than any other, and the human can bypass them to get to the industrial and trade for the optional techs later. I guess many people only go for techs that give a specific GW they want and democracy (because the AI places a high value on government techs).
The real issue is perhaps whether a tech at the end of an optional part of the tech tree should be made mandatory (and therefore optional techs on the way are mandatory too) so that the human player can't skip as many techs in the medieval.
There is probably a stronger argument for making economics mandatory, rather than navigation, in order to be able to manage an industrial era empire. That does however make democracy mandatory as well, which none of the government techs are at present.
I would be happy with a general approach of fewer optional techs which should force the human to research and trade techs more and be less able to exploit the AI.
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CerberusIV
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Looking at navigation in particular, I wonder if one answer would be to remove ocean trading from magnetism and give it to combustion. Exploration would presumably still be possible without navigation as galleons and frigates could cross ocean but a player who wants/needs to trade across ocean would have to get navigation or wait until mid-industrial.
Or just remove ocean trading from magnetism if this causes the AI to value navigation higher?
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by CerberusIV
Or just remove ocean trading from magnetism if this causes the AI to value navigation higher? |
I thought of this as well, but did not propose it, in fear of the outcries of "it would remove strategic options!". If Navigation (an optional tech) were to unlock the ability to trade across Ocean, it would arguably not be mandatory at all.
Yet this is the whole point, and it is also why I like this solution. Note that certain techs, like The Republic and Military Tradition have abilities so useful that they're, for all intents and purposes, mandatory. The only games where you would not want Cavalry around are those where you're either very far ahead (and able to just fly into the Industrial age unscathed in order to get at all the goodies there) or very far behind (where you would rather just get "industrialized" as quickly as possible). Similarly with Navigation, if it were the only tech to allow Ocean trade: in some games, Ocean trade is simply not all that useful.
What do others think about this alternative change?
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Nor Me
I should not be able to archer rush Babylon so easily.
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*** AU207 Spoiler ***
The reason you were able to Archer-rush the Babs easily in AU207 is their start location. The Babs originally had a great start spot down there (closer to the River, with some Bonus Grasslands and Game), and it felt like they might be a little too strong so early on (I did want to be too "evil" after the Greeks situation in AU 204).
So it is still an open question as to whether Bowmen Offense/Defense flags should be altered.
Concerning your confusion about my statement that Ocean trade is sometimes not all that useful, I am, of coourse, speaking in relative terms. In some games I would never trade the option to get Cavalry ASAP for the ability to trade over Ocean tiles. Also consider that on of my main strategies with civs on other continents is to sign alliances with the weaker ones against the stronger ones. So I do not get to benefit from trading with the best overseas civs. This is fine with me, as (in my experience) the benefits of keeping the AI at war far outweigh the benefits of peaceful trade.
Dominae
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Dominae
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I'll post a more complete reply to CerberusIV and Nathan later on today.
For now, let me just point out that a relatively major consequence of making Navigation a prerequeisite for Magnetism is that Galleons and Frigates are pushed even further back into tech development. In many games this means Frigates (and even Galleons) will have an even smaller window of use.
I know it "makes sense" to make Navigation a prerequisite, but it does not help gameplay very much, and changes it rather drastically. The minimalist approach, simply making Navigation mandatory, is I think the best solution.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by player1
How so, if Navigation is also made mandatory? |
Because you get Magnetism much later in the tech tree, most probably toward the end since the AIs do not have access to it until Navigation is complete. Making Magnetism the last tech in the Medieval era does not leave much time for its boats until Steam Power comes along.
The case for Galleons is not as big as I had originally thought (since they're the best transport until Combustion). But Frigates and Privateers are even more useless. This is annoying.
Furthermore, the proposed change clearly supports a particular playstyle, namely, mass Cavalry inter-continental invasions (if those are necessary). I cannot see how this helps the AI.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
Further, any extension to or protection of the life of galleons and frigates would come at the expense of completely eliminating the life of ocean-going caravels (except as non-upgraded anachronisms).
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Let's leave the problem of Privateers and Frigates for another day. The proposed change of making Navigation mandatory does not address it, nor affect it.
I would like to know what problem the "Magnetism requires Navigation" change is supposed to solve. The two reasons you (Nathan) proposed are to 1) make Caravels more useful, and 2) push back Galleon/Cavalry invasions. These are certainly areas needing improvement (minor, IMO; Caravels are already plenty useful in those dominant games where you want to reach your opponents with Knights ASAP, and funneling the Galleon/Cavalry strat through Navigation will actually make it more exclusive to the human player). Yet these areas of improvement are independent of making Navigation mandatory, so I'm confused as to why you want to "piggyback" them onto the change I'm proposing.
It seems to me that the true intention behind the change is to solve the (human) problem of the drawback of having to research yet another Medieval age tech. "At least Navigation will not be completely useless if I have no need for it until after Military Tradition". But these are not the types of problem we're trying to solve. In the interests of keeping things as unchanged as possible, I see no reason to play with prerequisites in this case.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 02-04-2003 at 00:05
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
On the contrary, making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism tends to make intercontinental cavalry invasions slightly less practical.
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You're right in this, and also right to say "slightly".
But you've come full circle in your arguments: before you wanted there to be a strategic decision in whether or not to research Navigation, and with the change you've just proposed there is none (the "Trade over Ocean" ability is now useless in Magnetism, correct?).
We're trying to make as few changes as possible here!
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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My biggest reason for wanting to make Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism if we make Navigation mandatory is that otherwise, we have a completely nonsensical situation. There are two logically consistent ways of viewing Navigation. (1) Navigation represents a way of traveling oceans that quickly becomes obsolete, and that therefore can be skipped over if civs want to wait until better technology is available. (2) Navigation is necessry to travel oceans safely no matter what other techs a civ has, and therefore should be mandatory.
If we make Navigation mandatory without making it a prerequisite for Magnetism, we create a logically inconsistent state in which Navigation is mandatory yet in no rational way necessary. If galleons can sail oceans without Navigation, it stands to reason that ironclads, transports, battleships, and so forth should be able to as well. So what even remotely plausible justification is there for making Navigation mandatory?
This logical inconsistency, in turn, leads to a gameplay effect that could easily become rather annoying. If a player already has Magnetism, Navigation would be a tech that serves no sane purpose other than to slow him down. But if Navigation is a prerequisite for Magnetism, both techs bring significant new capabilities, and the risk that people will feel like they're being forced to waste time on something useless will be reduced dramatically.
In terms of number of rules changes, simply making Navigation mandatory and doing nothing else is the smaller change. But at a conceptual level, I think shifting Navigation from being something of only temporary value and therefore optional to being a prerequisite for all safe ocean travel and therefore both mandatory and a prerequisite for Magnetism is the most straightforward answer.
Nathan
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
If galleons can sail oceans without Navigation, it stands to reason that ironclads, transports, battleships, and so forth should be able to as well. So what even remotely plausible justification is there for making Navigation mandatory?
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The point of the AU mod is not to create historical realism, or even have things "make sense". There are plenty of things in the game that "make no sense" (like The Wheel being a prerequiriste for Horseback Riding) which the AU mod does not address. So although your proposal is well-founded, I do not believe it belongs in the AU mod.
And notice that never in the game do you have to suspend your disbelief: in order to even reach Ironclads, Transports, etc. you need to be in the Industrial age, meaning your civilization would already know both Magnetism and Navigation. The fact that these are seperable in theory is not at all convincing to me to warrant a change in the mod.
quote:
This logical inconsistency, in turn, leads to a gameplay effect that could easily become rather annoying. If a player already has Magnetism, Navigation would be a tech that serves no sane purpose other than to slow him down.
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Then you should also have objected to making Printing Press mandatory, which you did not. Similarly for Mysticism or Polytheism, which no "sane" peacemonger/builder would ever research. It sucks that some techs are useless and redundant, but addressing this issue is a whole other can of worms.
And, might I add, that the "slowing down" effect is really what we're trying to achieve here.
How about this alternative solution?
1. Navigation is mandatory.
2. Magnetism loses the "trade over Ocean tiles" ability.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
The point of the AU mod is not to create historical realism, or even have things "make sense". There are plenty of things in the game that "make no sense" (like The Wheel being a prerequiriste for Horseback Riding) which the AU mod does not address. So although your proposal is well-founded, I do not believe it belongs in the AU mod. |
As far as I'm concerned, there is an enormous difference between choosing not to tinker with things that are less than entirely realistic in the default rules and creating major new unrealisms.
quote:
And notice that never in the game do you have to suspend your disbelief: in order to even reach Ironclads, Transports, etc. you need to be in the Industrial age, meaning your civilization would already know both Magnetism and Navigation. The fact that these are seperable in theory is not at all convincing to me to warrant a change in the mod. |
But why in the world do you need Navigation to navigate ironclads and transports, but not to navigate galleons? I see no even remotely sane reason for that.
quote:
Then you should also have objected to making Printing Press mandatory, which you did not. Similarly for Mysticism or Polytheism, which no "sane" peacemonger/builder would ever research. It sucks that some techs are useless and redundant, but addressing this issue is a whole other can of worms. |
Based on an atheistic view of religion as nothing more than a cultural phenomenon, and assuming that one views religions as always following a certain pattern, one can view Mysticism and Polytheism as implicit prerequisites for Monotheism. But rather than have explicit prerequisite lines to Monotheism, Firaxis put them in different eras. (The whole religion structure in the game runs counter to my own religoius views - if God is real, why in the world would every civ have to go through a polytheistic phase? - but that's something I prefer not to think about.)
Similarly, my view on Printing Press is that there are limits to how far a civ's technology can evolve without the ability to print. Thus, viewing Printing Press as an implicit prerequisite for industrial techs (medical books, books conveying information about the sciences needed to develop steam power, nationalistic propaganda, and so forth) seems reasonable to me. The tech is not mandatory just to slow players down; it is mandatory because it is a logical, reasonable prerequisite for other things.
The difference with Navigation is that if it is a logical prerequisite for any later tech at all, it must of necessity be a logical prerequisite for Magnetism (at least as long as Magnetism involves safe ocean travel and trade). So if it is not a prerequisite for Magnetism, the idea that it is mandatory because it is an implicit prerequisite for industrial technologies becomes a farce.
quote:
And, might I add, that the "slowing down" effect is really what we're trying to achieve here.
How about this alternative solution?
1. Navigation is mandatory.
2. Magnetism loses the "trade over Ocean tiles" ability. |
Is there a particular reason you're so intent on avoiding making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism? Yes, I know it's an extra rules change, but when you remove the optional nature of Navigation, you implicitly pull out the underpinnings that justify making it an independent tech instead of a prerequisite.
Your idea here seems reasonably viable, although it still leaves something of an inconsistency if galleons can travel safely through oceans but their ability to do so does not make trade possible. But is it really less of a change in the rules than making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism would be? Making Navigation a prerequisite means that a civ with Magnetism will always have the same abilities in the AU Mod that a civ with Magnetism would have in the stock game. In contrast, this approach actually changes things so that civs with Magnetism don't have the same abilities.
Nathan
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
As far as I'm concerned, there is an enormous difference between choosing not to tinker with things that are less than entirely realistic in the default rules and creating major new unrealisms.
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I thought you said earlier that Navigation and Magnetism were "logically seperable" (my quotes). So, according to your concerns, making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism is unrealistic. This whole discussion is quite confusing, because you're jumping between arguing for gameplay and for realism.
quote:
But why in the world do you need Navigation to navigate ironclads and transports, but not to navigate galleons? I see no even remotely sane reason for that.
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As you yourself state, just think about Navigation being "implicit" in the technologies required for Ironclads and Transports, since these are in different eras and Navigation is required (if the change goes through). This brings up the following objection:
quote:
The difference with Navigation is that if it is a logical prerequisite for any later tech at all, it must of necessity be a logical prerequisite for Magnetism (at least as long as Magnetism involves safe ocean travel and trade).
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Again, this is arguing from a "things must be realistic!" point of view, which, I think, is not the right way to look at this game (which is a just an abstraction from reality), much less the AU mod. And from a purely realistic point of view, I imagine that many players would not blink twice if Navigation were in fact a mandatory Medieval tech, regardless of the minor inconsistencies it creates (we can swallow that Gunpowder is a prerequisite of Chemistry...why not this?).
I was going to start a big rant on realism here, but it is just not worth it...
quote:
So if it is not a prerequisite for Magnetism, the idea that it is mandatory because it is an implicit prerequisite for industrial technologies becomes a farce.
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I can handle such "farces". Civ3 is full of such "farces", be they created by the designers or introduced by the players. This is not in the interests of the AU mod.
quote:
Is there a particular reason you're so intent on avoiding making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism?
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The AU mod aims to change as little as possible. Without any testing, I would imagine that playing with prerequisites would cause some gameplay changes. Why introduce such changes just to cater to those (few) players who think that Navigation's new role would be "farcical".
quote:
But is it really less of a change in the rules than making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism would be? |
I think so. I would rather just leave things as I originally proposed and simply make Navigation mandatory. The new clause was a compromise solution to address your concerns. I would be happy with changing as little as possible, even if it were to create some "unrealistic" situations.
Dominae
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:26
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Dominae, the only thing I've really seen from you regarding why not to make Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism is that it changes the game. As far as I'm concerned, the damage of changing the game is done the moment Navigation is made mandatory. Navigation's position in the tech tree is shifted just as surely if it's made a prerequisite for the industrial techs as if it's made a prerequisite for Magnetism.
Once that step is taken, my priority becomes to fit Navigation into a revised tech tree in the cleanest and most reasonable way possible. If Navigation is a prerequisite for Magnetism, that works from every angle: it reflects history, it ensures that both Navigation and Magnetism bring benefits when they are discovered, and it provides a logical foundation for why Navigation ought to be mandatory. And I also view the effect on intercontinental cavalry invasions as a plus, albeit a small one.
And I just thought of one other tidbit: making Navigation a prerequisite for Magnetism shortens the window for a human player to trade for Navigation a little extra. That reduces opportunities for using a trade to get Navigation from an AI that is relatively uncompetitive. Thus, it enhances the effects you were seeking in making Navigation mandatory in the first place, albeit not by a huge amount.
In contrast, I see no clear advantages in terms of either gameplay or logical consistency/realism to making Navigation mandatory yet not making it a prerequisite for Magnetism. Even the effect in terms of changing gameplay as little as practical is a Pyrrhic victory, since the only times it matters whether or not Navigation is a prerequisite for Magnetism are times when the player ends up stuck researching Navigation even though Magnetism has already given him its main benefits.
Nathan
Last edited by nbarclay on 02-04-2003 at 12:08
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30-03-2003 21:34
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