17-10-2003 21:12									#181
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I guess we will have to see how it works out, by play testing.

But as far as I can guess without testing, it looks promising. Civs without a knight UU will probably have a more balanced choice between Chivalry, Military Tradition, and Nationalism. As it is now, MT is the best of those three optional techs hands down, and the only one worth reseaching on a regular basis by the human player.

	17-10-2003 21:13									#182
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quote: People without those units skip Chivalry and go for MT, but now they can take the cheaper tech and forgo MT.

What's wrong with that?

A Rider upgrades to the new Cavalry very cheaply...definitely worth the extra point of Attack.

The only worry is if Military Tradition became a useless tech for all civs, in other words, that a 5/3/3 Cavalry is a poor unit. I doubt this will be the case: if you want to beeline to Military Tradition, I'm sure you can still do some real damage with the new Cavalry; if not, well, you'll have the same old Cavalry on the era change (more or less).

Basically you'll have to beeline for Military Tradition to get the best use out of it, but this is currently the standard strategy anyway.


Dominae

	17-10-2003 21:26									#183
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What about making Chivalry a 2nd prerequisite for MT?

	17-10-2003 21:57									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae The only worry is if Military Tradition became a useless tech for all civs, in other words, that a 5/3/3 Cavalry is a poor unit.

Military Tradition allows the Military Academy too, thus enabling Armies to be built. Hardly useless.

	17-10-2003 22:13									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Military Tradition allows the Military Academy too, thus enabling Armies to be built. Hardly useless.

I think that the Academy is not a factor. I say that because it will
take some time to get around to building it and completion. Then you are not so strong (no factory) and building Armies is very expensive. Later you will be able to take advantage of the Academy, but often is so late in the game as to not have much of an impact. Note that I do like to use armies and will usually get them from the academy. It will be for tanks or MA's mostly. So I can afford to wait a long time before getting to the Academy.

	17-10-2003 22:35									#186
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What about:

Dragoon, 5.3.3/80, Military Tradition, Available to all except Ottomans+Russia, upgrades to Sipahi
Sipahi, 7.3.3/90, Military Tradition, Available to Ottomans, upgrades to Cossack
Cossack, 5.4.3/80, Military Tradition, Available to Russia, upgrades to Cavalry
Cavalry, 7.3.3/90, Nationalism, Available to all except Ottomans, no upgrade

This makes the Sipahi just an earlier Cavalry (~half an age). Although this is the case only if beelining to MT, so if researching like the AI (MT last), the Ottomans remain screwed. Perhaps adding another benefit, like +1hp?

	17-10-2003 23:09									#187
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I had the same worry as vxma1... for a moment, only, though.

5/3/3 versus 4/3/2??

I'd upgrade in a New York minute.

	17-10-2003 23:49									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I had the same worry as vxma1... for a moment, only, though. 5/3/3 versus 4/3/2?? I'd upgrade in a New York minute.

I would upgrade, the question is would I want to research the tech. Remember you will soon be in the next age and have the better units. Especially if you are a scientific civ. Largely the AI will not be a big problem for you at this point with the knight type unit. Of course you will have some games that make that strategy wrong, that is what is good about civ, you cannot do the same thing in all cases. Anyway, I am not presenting this a sure thing, only as a food for thought, a consideration.

	18-10-2003 00:03									#189
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I think the a-5 still makes the beeline an option, it just won't be as attractive an option, thus opening up other possible avenues for approaching the Middle Era tech tree. As is, I always do the beeline to Military Tradition. Reducing the attack by one will force me to consider other options depending on circumstances in my game.

	18-10-2003 07:38									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What about : Dragoon, 5.3.3/80, Military Tradition, Available to all except Ottomans+Russia, upgrades to Sipahi Sipahi, 7.3.3/90, Military Tradition, Available to Ottomans, upgrades to Cossack Cossack, 5.4.3/80, Military Tradition, Available to Russia, upgrades to Cavalry Cavalry, 7.3.3/90, Nationalism, Available to all except Ottomans, no upgrade This makes the Sipahi just an earlier Cavalry (~half an age). Although this is the case only if beelining to MT, so if researching like the AI (MT last), the Ottomans remain screwed. Perhaps adding another benefit, like +1hp?

Why increase the attack of Nationalism Cavalry to 7 (and the cost to 90)? 6/3/3 for 80 is still useful when Riflemen are around (as we all well know). The Ottomans retain a strong unit in both eras, as before.

And, while I'm disagreeing with Sir Ralph:

quote: What about making Chivalry a 2nd prerequisite for MT?

Why? I see no problem with leaving the optional techs as just that: optional. The Cavalry beeline/rush would be just as potent despite Chivalry being added to the process.


Dominae

	18-10-2003 19:42									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Why increase the attack of Nationalism Cavalry to 7 (and the cost to 90)? 6/3/3 for 80 is still useful when Riflemen are around (as we all well know). The Ottomans retain a strong unit in both eras, as before.

You mean the Cavalry unit available with Nationalism should have 6/3/3 with no additional cost, making it a free upgrade? Or did I get you wrong?

	19-10-2003 03:30									#192
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Yup, that's what I was thinking.

Conceptually I think it would work: Nationalism just makes your Cavalry more aggressive in battle. Technically I see no problem implementing it this way in the editor. In terms of gameplay, the only problem would be bringing all your Cavalry back home to upgrade, but then again Nationalism is at the same level as Steam Power.


Dominae

	19-10-2003 03:44									#193
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That is cooool.

	19-10-2003 03:54									#194
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Will the AI do a free upgrade? Or will it just think, it costs the same so it's not worth upgrading? Anyone ran a test?

	19-10-2003 04:17									#195
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Good question. I'm not really sure...

But how often does the AI upgrade anyway? Even if it does know how to upgrade equal-cost units, we would still see quite a few 5/3/3 Cavalry running around after Nationalism.


Dominae

	19-10-2003 04:30									#196
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It depends, Dom. I have seen longbowman in the modern age.

	19-10-2003 10:33									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Will the AI do a free upgrade? Or will it just think, it costs the same so it's not worth upgrading? Anyone ran a test?

The AI definitely upgrades. Just watch the Celts "upgrade" their Gallic Swordsmen to Med. Infantry after they have triggered their GA!

When you see the AI not upgrading units in a barracks city, it's because it doesn't have enough extra cash, not because it doesn't want or know how to do so.

By the way, what would happen with the Russian and Ottoman UU's? We should take away one attack factor and give it back with Nationalism as well, right? (So they would really have two UU).

	20-10-2003 17:38									#198
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quote: Originally posted by alexman By the way, what would happen with the Russian and Ottoman UU's? We should take away one attack factor and give it back with Nationalism as well, right? (So they would really have two UU).

That's what I was thinking...

Cossack 5.4.3 with Mil. Trad.
Cossack II 6.4.3 with Nationalism

Sipahi 7.3.3 w/Mil. Trad.
Sipahi II 8.3.3 w/Nationalism

Any more thoughts on ship movement? I usually play on large/huge maps, and I modded ship movement as follows, but it does have the "disappear into the FOW" effect once you get to modern navies:

First I changed the movement costs for water squares as follows:
Coast = 1
Sea = 2
Ocean = 3 - "wheeled" units cannot enter.

Then I changed all sea going vessels like this:

Galley: Move = 6 and flagged as "wheeled". I'm not a suicide galley fan.
Caravel: Move = 6
Galleon: Move = 8
Privateer: Move = 6
Frigate: Move = 8
Man-O-War: Move = 8
Ironclad: Move = 8 and "wheeled"

Everything else (post-Ironclad) retains their original movement points, but I flagged them as "treat all terrain as roads"... so once you start building a modern navy, the ships REALLY move.

	20-10-2003 18:55									#199
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There's no need to create to new UUs for the Russians and Ottomans, IMO:

Cossack: 6/4/3, 80 Shields, available at Military Tradition
Sipahi: 7/3/3, 90 Shields, available at Military Tradition

Each of these civs cannot build the "Cavalry II". Does this work in the editor. I suspect so...

This makes the Russian UU a little better than it used to be. The Ottoman UU remains quite powerful.


Dominae

	20-10-2003 19:17									#200
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The only thing is that this way Sipahi lose some of their advantage in continuing warfare into the industrial age, and that upgrades are not quite so expensive for the Ottomans. Perhaps adding a second UU for them is actually a smaller change...

	20-10-2003 19:19									#201
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Stuie, doesn't the ship movement you propose make it very difficult to intercept invasion and raiding ships? (i.e. no need to have a navy for defense, only for attack)

	20-10-2003 19:24									#202
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quote: Originally posted by alexman The only thing is that this way Sipahi lose some of their advantage in continuing warfare into the industrial age, and that upgrades are not quite so expensive for the Ottomans.

These two factors counter-balance each other, no?


Dominae

	20-10-2003 19:25									#203
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Sure they do. But why make two counter-balancing changes, if the unit is OK with no changes?
[Edit: no additional changes other than those we make to the generic cavalry unit, that is.]

By the way, I'm fine either way. This is a very minor detail compared to the Cavalry change we are considering.

Last edited by alexman on 20-10-2003 at 19:32

	20-10-2003 19:34									#204
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If we're going to reduce the Attack of all Cavalry, it makes sense to reduce it for Sipahi as well. Rather than introduce yet another new unit to Nationalism, it's simpler to reduce the cost of the Sipahi outright. Compare to the standard Cavalry versions:

Military Tradition 5/3/3 for 80: the Siphai gets a +2 Attack for 10 Shields. A little strong, if you ask me, but nothing crazy.

Nationalism 6/3/3 for 80: the Sipahi gets +1 Attack for 10 Shields. A little weaker, nicely counter-balancing the power of the MT version.

Alternatively we could just leave the Sipahi at 100 Shields. The Sipahi would then be great in a Cavalry beeline, but "very average" afterward. This would be fine with me, too.

Creating new units is big change...creating new UUs is worse!


Dominae

	20-10-2003 19:41									#205
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There's nothing wrong with having 2 new different UUs within the lifespan of the old one. I have done this in my ByeByePtW mod (see this post) and I'm up to playtest it.

	20-10-2003 19:48									#206
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I like the idea of keeping the UUs consistent with the changes to cavalry; -1 attack at Mil. Trad., full value at Nationalism.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Stuie, doesn't the ship movement you propose make it very difficult to intercept invasion and raiding ships? (i.e. no need to have a navy for defense, only for attack)

I tend to use some ships as "pickets" to keep back the FOW, and thus maintain some intercept ability when hostile forces appear to be gathering.

Anyway, it's definitely not perfect. I was just hoping to stimulate some further discussion of naval movement. Then again, that might be an area for which we want to wait for C3C since they supposedly focused a lot of attention on naval warfare.

	20-10-2003 21:23									#207
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Dominae, the change currently on offer looks like the most conservative of those with extra units. The only real problem with new units is dealing with the graphics. In PTW that'd mean a new folder for each scenario. 3 units is no more difficult than 1. The change you're suggesting would change Ottoman strategy more.

With this change, I would definately skip Military Tradition more often and Nationalism less. However, buying Nationalism off the AI will probaly remain expensive and the AI is very likely to get it first. The AI should gain a military advantage over a builder trying to get tech as fast as possible. That complements the disavantage oif warmongers bee-lining to MT nicely..

On the ship movement, we should definately wait and see what seafaring is like in practice. Any change increasing the base movement of ships is likely to make the trait worse.

If a seafaring AI can use suicide galleys better thean a non-seafaring human, then we lose most of the justification for the changes we've already got. Suicide galleys would no longer be such an exploit and stopping them would just make seafaring much worse. World contact may be unlikely until Printing Press anyway.

	20-10-2003 21:55									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me Dominae, the change currently on offer looks like the most conservative of those with extra units. The only real problem with new units is dealing with the graphics. In PTW that'd mean a new folder for each scenario. 3 units is no more difficult than 1. The change you're suggesting would change Ottoman strategy more.

Trying to preserve the feel of unmodded Civ3 is important both at a conceptual and a gameplay level. When a new player reads over the documentation for the AU mod, you bet it's going to be daunting to see entries for new UUs, and annoying to have to play with graphics folders just to get everything right. We want the mod to be simple and accessible.

Regardless, I'm not sure why Ottoman strategy would change that much in my version of the Cavalry proposal. The Ottomans retain a strong unit in both eras, i.e. the only 7-power Cavalry unit. I'm willing to accept the slight change in that the Ottomans could not use their Sipahi to continue to dominate a large chunk of the early Industrial era, as they currently do. Let's all be honest and admit that the Sipahi is a bit too powerful as is. It could therefore use some balancing.

Ottoman "strategy" will not be affected, only its relative potency. Again, I would much rather do this by playing with ADM values and cost than creating a new unit.


Dominae

	20-10-2003 22:06									#209
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The documentation doesn't have to say anything other than "Removed one attack factor from all cavalry-level units. This attack factor is restored at Nationalism with a free upgrade." or something like that. Simpler to explain and remember than having special cases for the UU, no?

	20-10-2003 22:26									#210
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I admit, that does sound good.

We would use the same art for both Military Tradition and Nationalism units, right?

Now, what about naming? We need some adjective that gets the idea across that the Nationalism Cavalry are just slightly better. 'Advanced'

'Advanced'
'Superior'
'Zealous'

?


Dominae