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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:26
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Socialism is coming. The fact that socialism is coming can be clearly demonstrated by the changing conditions of our present situation. There is no doubt that socialism is coming, and it's arrival is not far away. The purpose of civilization up to this point, I believe, is socialism. Socialism is the greatest expression of both civilization’s advancement and man's connection to God. In other words, the most divine expression of humanity is socialism and God's greatest purpose for us is to achieve a level of oneness and spiritual evolution that would result in socialism. I do believe that our ultimate moment of truth is rapidly approaching and the purpose of this thread is to discuss what we as socialists, communists, anarchists, Christians, Buddhists, or simply human beings can do to best affect the coming age, and to help achieve the greatest and most beneficial level of socialist transformation for humanity.
The world is presently entering a time of great troubles. There is talk of wars, pandemics, meteors, famine, widespread suffering, all on a scale perhaps not seen in recorded history. After a great deal of meditation and prayer on these matters, I am convinced that we are entering a major paradigm shift in regards to our spiritual evolution. I believe that the lessons of the next few years will inevitably lead us to an evolution, socially and spiritually, that will be unmatched in human history. Out of this evolution will come a greater understanding and compassion for our fellow human beings, and ultimately, socialism. Socialism will not come about through a bloody revolution. In fact, I am convinced that Marx's long anticipated proletarian revolution will never come. Ironically, Socialism will be a result of evolution, rather than revolution, although it will certainly revolutionize the way we view our fellow man. This may put me at odds with conventional socialist orthodoxy, but I am convinced that only love will create lasting revolution, not hatred nor violence nor force of arms.
I propose the following platforms be adopted to best suit what I feel would be a greater Socialist Party.
- ------A general divorce from social issues.
While I support the social issues that the socialist party has traditionally stood for, they will be highly divisive in the short term. It would be highly prudent if we stood for nothing more than greater cooperation in the economic realm, once we achieve socialism, we will have achieved such a degree of love and evolution that the social issues will come easy. It is best that we alienate as few up front as possible and an adamant pro-choice position, for example, will alienate many.
- --------A general divorce from the Marxist literary tradition.
While I greatly admire the works of writers such as Marx and Trotsky, I feel that it is best that we separate ourselves from this often-dogmatic tradition because it is both unnecessary, and even counter-productive to our overall goals. Speaking nothing of their caliber as intellectual works, which is of course, nearly unmatched. They have outlived their usefulness in enacting true, lasting socialism.
First and foremost, there is no need for long readings on such things as theories of fetishism of commodities, or capitalist accumulation. Socialism is love, plain and simple. There is no need for Marx's rather lengthy tomes since socialism, at it's roots, is such a remarkably simple concept. Socialism is based in ideals of love, brotherhood, and compassion, if we simply encourage these things in our activities; there is no need for Marx.
Secondly, Marx's works actually betray the audience we are trying to reach. The average person couldn't hope to decipher one of Marx's works in a million years. An interesting paradox of Marx is that his work could not be read by it's most effective target audience. In today's America, something even relatively simple in terms of Marxist writings, such as "the Communist Manifesto", would strongly alienate the average person. Socialism will never get anywhere with only the support of the ivory tower intellectual. We would be best to effectively abandon Marx entirely.
- -------Create works that attract the average person
Slightly related to the previous point, but unique in it's own way. As socialists, we are harbingers of the coming age. We have a responsibility to reach as many people as possible, to show them the infinite love and understanding that the coming age will offer. We cannot do that with archaic works such as "Das Kapital", we need to create works that can reach the average Joe Schmo and impart some wisdom that will help them make better decisions and to help build socialism in their own way.
- --------Encourage the spiritual side of socialism
Beyond everything else, socialism is our ultimate purpose on this Earth. There is nothing greater that we could do than to reach such a level of love and compassion as to achieve socialism. Most uninformed people presently think of us as the bad guys, but if people were to find out that we were not only the good guys, but also the ULTIMATE good guys, we would undoubtedly attract new people to our ideology, and with each new person joining our cause, our mission becomes much easier.
- -----------Encourage forgiveness and compassion for even the bad guys
Mao once said something to the effect that we should shoot all capitalists, or else we will have to feed them. For too long there has been a serious air of retribution toward the capitalists (henceforth referred to as the bad guys) in communist literature. Past communists have wanted to make them pay dearly for all their crimes, and such was actually the case in all past revolutions. I encourage that we actually "let them off easy, boys", as Lincoln said regarding the defeated southerners. As human beings in a socialist society, they are deserving of forgiveness and understanding just as any other. We should drop any retribution rhetoric that may exist, since it both betrays our philosophy of universal love and brotherhood, and pragmatically, it may alienate some people as well. Ideally, by showing the bad guys compassion and forgiveness, some would even recant of their ways and follow us.
I think that if we as a Communist Party were to adopt the aforementioned principles, we would be in much stronger shape to enact positive change. I am open to other suggestions as well; after all, such is the purpose of this thread. But I feel that it is time that socialists abandon the mistakes of the past and start anew.
As a final note, remember that we cannot ever give up. Our victory is soon at hand. We will be the generation to lead the world to an unprecedented future. While we, as a party on a small Greek video game site may seem weak against the all-powerful juggernaut that currently opposes us, remember that all positive change starts with the individual. The love that one person shows has a ripple effect that can pass to many. I believe that the Apolyton Communist Party alone, working together with utter determination, is all that is truly needed to enact global change. Also know that we cannot ever be truly defeated. Come what may to us, they cannot ever destroy our ideals and as long as there is God, there is will always be socialism. While people from Joan D'Arc to perhaps GW Bush of the present day have thought that they were fighting with God on their side, if there was ever a side that God would be on it is ours. Take comfort that God loves an underdog, and he will be with us to ensure our victory. In the meantime, help out those who need help, feed those who hunger, show compassion toward those who are persecuted and do what you can to help out our cause.
Now I ask Apolyton, what is to be done?
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:26
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Party members only! 
Let's storm the apolytonian winter castle residence of Markos the Mad!
Seriously, IMO, we should at first reach a general understanding of what are the aims of our movement.
I, for example, disagree with lots of the things that you preach. yet, I think that we can, should, MUST formulate some sort of a common approach.
A brief sketch, without much formulation, of my ideas of a correct society.
- a democratic government, federal if encompassing large plots of land, and masses of people.
- a socialist consitution. ( I, personally, would like it to be formed around utilitarianism, but we can debate this )
- Separation of powers.
- a state media, separated from the government, in similar ways to the judiciary.
- Industry/Commerce geared for two main directions: consumer goods and state developement, with state developement that can be much better planned that consumer goods, consumer goods manufacturing should be made more flexible.
- Strong quality control procedures on manufacturing and commerce: my basic premise is if quality control can be made a reality of life in corporations, there is no reason why a similar model couldn't be implemented in a government-owned company.
- Ensuring good healthcare and free education for all, with supply of different higher education goals to be directly connected to the demands by the industry.
As I've said, a brief sketch.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Party members only!
I, for example, disagree with lots of the things that you preach. yet, I think that we can, should, MUST formulate some sort of a common approach.
A brief sketch, without much formulation, of my ideas of a correct society.
- a democratic government, federal if encompassing large plots of land, and masses of people.
- a socialist consitution. ( I, personally, would like it to be formed around utilitarianism, but we can debate this )
- Separation of powers.
- a state media, separated from the government, in similar ways to the judiciary.
- Industry/Commerce geared for two main directions: consumer goods and state developement, with state developement that can be much better planned that consumer goods, consumer goods manufacturing should be made more flexible.
- Strong quality control procedures on manufacturing and commerce: my basic premise is if quality control can be made a reality of life in corporations, there is no reason why a similar model couldn't be implemented in a government-owned company.
- Ensuring good healthcare and free education for all, with supply of different higher education goals to be directly connected to the demands by the industry.
As I've said, a brief sketch. |
Thanks for the thoughtful response comrade, I agree with possibly all of your general ideas. Most of them I would classify in the "it goes without saying" category. For example, democracy, health care, education, constitution, and perhaps a couple others. That's to say that they would be a given in any future socialist society based on principles of love and compassion. Some of your specific ideas regarding manufacturing and industry I consider mostly non-issues at this point which I neither disagree nor agree with (but feel that they sound like good ideas in any event). But I feel that they would be something that would be best left to determining in the future, rather than rigidly adhering to in the present. After all, once we evolve to a greater level of spiritual consciousness and basically achieve socialism, everything else will be easy.
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Jon Miller
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you forgot no personal property or money...
Jon Miller
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Seeker
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London Ontario
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
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I don't know what makes you think socialism is coming. Maybe, for optimists, a 'social conscience' is developing. (outside the US government of course).
Also, things are actually better now than they have ever been before. If that sounds incredible, it's because things were so incredibly crap-tastic before.
(OK, maybe not if you had your life savings in Enron, but compared to any other century or decade we live under less threat of mass war, starvation, and disease than at any previous time).
Also, doesn't true socialism require the abolition of our ridiculous 19th century nation states, and replacing them with a federal global government where the 'nation' is humanity? And doesn't that mean it will never happen because Americans will view that as a sure sign of the Anti-Christ and End Times?
Another criticism:
Under socialism, how can the great projects that ennoble and expand mankind be carried out? How can the best be rewarded and the mediocre punished? Isn't utopia, like HG Wells said, the death of science and initiative, and the beginning of a long evolutionary slide back to the trees?
I like these utopian ideas:
-electronic athens (a world-state that can leverage technology to govern directly by Rousseau's 'general will')
-or, more short-term, a rationalized Keynesian world of functioning liberal democracies, where the citizens actually believe in and cherish the values of secular, liberal, democracy, and where all states have some resource and can compete(and co-operate) on a true 'level playing field' (unlike the present situation, with insane irrational Colonial abortions of states like Chad and Malawi in the 'south', Balkanized foolios based around some valley of goatherders who happen to belong to some retarded ethnic group, etc and the old Imperial powers sitting on in the 'North', and maintaining, the worlds most unfair advantages in the most unfair ways).
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Traianvs
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Belgium, land of plenty (corruption)
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
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quote:
OK, maybe not if you had your life savings in Enron, but compared to any other century or decade we live under less threat of mass war, starvation, and disease than at any previous time |
Perhaps in places where you live things are a lot better (last 50 years Korea has done pretty good!!), but obviously you have no idea that the rich are getting richer and the poor even poorer
Although on the other hand Slavery and the like have been reduced, there is now a different kind of slavery, where people have to work all day in a Nike factory in order to survive.. and they still get payed **** there. Ok I know without western companies many ppl in the 3rd world would be unemployed, but I find it amusing that such companies can't even afford to give those workers a better wage, yet at the same time they can produce a mass of advertising on TV etc with famous stars and so on...
that's just one example.. It's not because some ppl in the west have these nifty technological devices and so on that life has gotten better for most people on this earth!
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Bereta_Eder
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
The first paragraph of the OP is much funnier if every instance of the word 'socialism' is changed to read 'my penis'. |
quote:
My penis is the greatest expression of both civilization’s advancement and man's connection to God. |
And I agree wholeheartedly.
/end threadjack.
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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:26
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before i start, i'd like to state in this case i'm advocating socialism the econmoic system, and not communism, the tolitarian political system atop said economic system.
quote:
Originally posted by monkspider
- ------A general divorce from social issues.
While I support the social issues that the socialist party has traditionally stood for, they will be highly divisive in the short term. It would be highly prudent if we stood for nothing more than greater cooperation in the economic realm, once we achieve socialism, we will have achieved such a degree of love and evolution that the social issues will come easy. It is best that we alienate as few up front as possible and an adamant pro-choice position, for example, will alienate many. |
i concur. i've already been flamed here for claiming to be a conservative communist (or, right wing commie), but i was deriving my conservative status from my social views. in the truest sense of political classification, i'm something of a Populist. Right wing social, Left wing Economics.
I believe that if a socialist movement focused mainly on the economic aspects, it would gain a stonger foothold in the community and move on a bit quicker.
quote:
- --------A general divorce from the Marxist literary tradition.
While I greatly admire the works of writers such as Marx and Trotsky, I feel that it is best that we separate ourselves from this often-dogmatic tradition because it is both unnecessary, and even counter-productive to our overall goals. Speaking nothing of their caliber as intellectual works, which is of course, nearly unmatched. They have outlived their usefulness in enacting true, lasting socialism.
First and foremost, there is no need for long readings on such things as theories of fetishism of commodities, or capitalist accumulation. Socialism is love, plain and simple. There is no need for Marx's rather lengthy tomes since socialism, at it's roots, is such a remarkably simple concept. Socialism is based in ideals of love, brotherhood, and compassion, if we simply encourage these things in our activities; there is no need for Marx.
Secondly, Marx's works actually betray the audience we are trying to reach. The average person couldn't hope to decipher one of Marx's works in a million years. An interesting paradox of Marx is that his work could not be read by it's most effective target audience. In today's America, something even relatively simple in terms of Marxist writings, such as "the Communist Manifesto", would strongly alienate the average person. Socialism will never get anywhere with only the support of the ivory tower intellectual. We would be best to effectively abandon Marx entirely.
- -------Create works that attract the average person
Slightly related to the previous point, but unique in it's own way. As socialists, we are harbingers of the coming age. We have a responsibility to reach as many people as possible, to show them the infinite love and understanding that the coming age will offer. We cannot do that with archaic works such as "Das Kapital", we need to create works that can reach the average Joe Schmo and impart some wisdom that will help them make better decisions and to help build socialism in their own way. |
eh... i concur to a degree. We shouldn't just "divorce" ourselves from some of the most inpired writings of the socialist ideals. Sure, we shouldn't "bank" on them just because we think they're awe inspiring, but we shouldn't abandon them.
we should do as you said, and create modern works relating to forms of socialism. perhaps we could even address many of the faults / failures in some of the past systems, and present ideas on how to avoid / remedy them.
we should attempt to make socialism relate to the people's lives at hand, so they know exactly what the system is supposed to be. we've carried the "evil empire" label for far too long. Socialism is about brotherhood.
quote:
- --------Encourage the spiritual side of socialism
Beyond everything else, socialism is our ultimate purpose on this Earth. There is nothing greater that we could do than to reach such a level of love and compassion as to achieve socialism. Most uninformed people presently think of us as the bad guys, but if people were to find out that we were not only the good guys, but also the ULTIMATE good guys, we would undoubtedly attract new people to our ideology, and with each new person joining our cause, our mission becomes much easier. |
As stated above, we have carried the "evil empire" label for too long.
The problem with Communism (as it exists in today's tolitarian regimes) is that they are highly fallable when it comes to corruption. when someone gets that much power, they end up doing stupid things / abusing their power. We must present a rational alternative and state why it would work, and why one person couldn't just take over. Truly, Democratic Socialism is possible if implimented correctly.
quote:
- -----------Encourage forgiveness and compassion for even the bad guys
Mao once said something to the effect that we should shoot all capitalists, or else we will have to feed them. For too long there has been a serious air of retribution toward the capitalists (henceforth referred to as the bad guys) in communist literature. Past communists have wanted to make them pay dearly for all their crimes, and such was actually the case in all past revolutions. I encourage that we actually "let them off easy, boys", as Lincoln said regarding the defeated southerners. As human beings in a socialist society, they are deserving of forgiveness and understanding just as any other. We should drop any retribution rhetoric that may exist, since it both betrays our philosophy of universal love and brotherhood, and pragmatically, it may alienate some people as well. Ideally, by showing the bad guys compassion and forgiveness, some would even recant of their ways and follow us. |
i don't think thats what Mao meant, i believe he was saying that the greedy in the society would end up being counterproductive to society itself, and find ways to abuse the system. that may just be my cynical take on his use of the word "capitialist", but thats the way i see it, and in my view, it's completely valid. I have no bones about killing people that want something for nothing, or someone that would harm others (not only physically) for something more.
but yes, many communist revolutions of the past have begun with "kill the rich, share their money". understandible feelings, you must admit.
Communist revolutions didn't happen in successful capitialist countries. they happened in countries where workers felt exploited, where the gap between rich and poor was huge. Such socieites lend themselves to Communism moreso than any cultural bias (Confuciousism - i can't spell). The gap between the rich and the poor is nothing more than a powderkeg, and as the gap widens more power is added to the keg. when one violent match strikes, the society goes boom, and those on top get thrown around.
I understand what you are saying, but you are advocating what appears to be a slow-shift into communism, not a overnight revolution, which is the way it ought to be achiveved anyway. It is very possible to "pardon" the "bad guys" as long as there's no true hatred of them by the lower class (powder), and no anger to start the whole thing off (match).
quote:
I think that if we as a Communist Party were to adopt the aforementioned principles, we would be in much stronger shape to enact positive change. I am open to other suggestions as well; after all, such is the purpose of this thread. But I feel that it is time that socialists abandon the mistakes of the past and start anew. |
one thing that would help to a degree, is the dropping of the word Communist. sure, it's a cooler word than socialist, sure it might even more accutrately describe a system you promote, but it's still a buzzword in society. not only with the old Reaganites (my dad used to say "Better dead than Red" to me on a quasi-daily basis), but with the young people as well. I always get curious / disgusted looks from stragers when my friends address me as "commie". now, my friends are educated, they know the difference between communism and socialism, they know what i stand for, it's just what we do. we slur eachother 
when someone hears commie, it's like someone called me "target". and everybody who thinks they know something is all over me. to quote one girl "you're a communist? how could you like hitler!?!?". I began to state how ignorant her question was (a bit more eloquently than i am now), that hitler opposed commies in germany, but she defended her position that Hitler was a commie, and i just walked away.
communism, communist, commie, pinko, red, whatever. they all have very negative connotations in society, no matter what their real defination is. Socialism is even tainted to some degree, in my opinion.
communism has failed in the past.
yes, we can justify it.
yes, we can point out flaws.
yes, we can point out America screwed them.
yes, we can point out a capitialistic state wouldn't have done much better.
yes, we can point out that it did a lot with a little.
but that doesn't change the fact that it failed, horribly, on the global stage, with millions of it's own people dead, at the hands of it's leader.
therefore i propose that everyone decide, right now, if they are a socialist or a communist. and declare themselves thusly.
hell, i sort of wish there was another, new, unassociated word that we could use for ourselves.
most people are ignorant to what socialism is, and what communism was. we must inform them, and clearly state what side we are on.
quote:
As a final note, remember that we cannot ever give up. Our victory is soon at hand. We will be the generation to lead the world to an unprecedented future. While we, as a party on a small Greek video game site may seem weak against the all-powerful juggernaut that currently opposes us, remember that all positive change starts with the individual. The love that one person shows has a ripple effect that can pass to many. I believe that the Apolyton Communist Party alone, working together with utter determination, is all that is truly needed to enact global change. Also know that we cannot ever be truly defeated. Come what may to us, they cannot ever destroy our ideals and as long as there is God, there is will always be socialism. While people from Joan D'Arc to perhaps GW Bush of the present day have thought that they were fighting with God on their side, if there was ever a side that God would be on it is ours. Take comfort that God loves an underdog, and he will be with us to ensure our victory. In the meantime, help out those who need help, feed those who hunger, show compassion toward those who are persecuted and do what you can to help out our cause.
Now I ask Apolyton, what is to be done? |
Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 18-03-2003 at 19:09
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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:26
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[re-threadjack]
quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
The first paragraph of the OP is much funnier if every instance of the word 'socialism' is changed to read 'my penis'. |
quote:
my penisis coming. The fact that my penis is coming can be clearly demonstrated by the changing conditions of our present situation. There is no doubt that my penis is coming, and it's arrival is not far away. The purpose of civilization up to this point, I believe, is my penis. my penis is the greatest expression of both civilization’s advancement and man's connection to God. In other words, the most divine expression of humanity is my penis and God's greatest purpose for us is to achieve a level of oneness and spiritual evolution that would result in my penis. I do believe that our ultimate moment of truth is rapidly approaching and the purpose of this thread is to discuss what we as my penisists, communists, anarchists, Christians, Buddhists, or simply human beings can do to best affect the coming age, and to help achieve the greatest and most beneficial level of my penis' transformation for humanity. |
[/re-threadjack]
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:26
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Jon Miller: I do not believe in the abolition of private prorerty. I am more of a Left wing socialist, really. 
Seeker:
quote:
Under socialism, how can the great projects that ennoble and expand mankind be carried out?
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quite easily, actually. This of course depends on the details, but generally, if the project is nothing urgent, but a long time useful and important initiative, the government will create an organization that will be responsible for this project, and will organize it. At the first stage, a plan of what is needed in terms of technology, manpower and machinery will be created, and a cost-benefit analysis will be created. The related industries/institutions will then start shifting and adjusting into fullfilling the future demand, and the plan will begin to be become reality.
The plan will, and should take precautionary steps, in order that no shortages and unexpected costs will be created. ( As happens now with both govt. and private projects). It will get a second opinion by an expert.
quote:
How can the best be rewarded and the mediocre punished? Isn't utopia, like HG Wells said, the death of science and initiative, and the beginning of a long evolutionary slide back to the trees?
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If you're mediocre, your payment will be mediocre. If you're good, your pay will be good, if you're brilliant, not only your pay will be great, you will be famous too. If you're bad, you will be fired. But your kids will still get educated, and you'll get healthcare too. But you will be dirt poor.
This is not a utopia. The society, and the government should and will change itself according to the realities of life. For example, if an enormous asteroid will come crashing on earth, It would be ethical to make harsh adjustments, and send all the resources to tackle the problem.
But first, and foremost, I think that a single ethical theory must be agreed upon. If we disagree on what is the criteria of "right" and "wrong", there is no way that long-term cooperation can be achieved.
I nominate Utilitarianism.
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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
quote:
How can the best be rewarded and the mediocre punished? Isn't utopia, like HG Wells said, the death of science and initiative, and the beginning of a long evolutionary slide back to the trees? |
If you're mediocre, your payment will be mediocre. If you're good, your pay will be good, if you're brilliant, not only your pay will be great, you will be famous too. If you're bad, you will be fired. But your kids will still get educated, and you'll get healthcare too. But you will be dirt poor. |
you're allowing for ecnomic desparity that will inevitably lead to socio/ecnomic classes and variances to power. all equality is dependent on all the other ones. you cannot truly be socially equal without being economically and politically equal. you can mix those up any way you want to, although " you cannot truly be economic w/o being politically / socially equally" is a bit unfounded, but you get the point.
i understand what you are advocating, it's another system, but i don't think thats the point of this thread as per Monk's original post.
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Inverse Icarus
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flying too low to the ground
May 2001
time: 00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
My goal here is not that everyone will live the same. I don't believe that this is feasible in large-scale economic systems, not to say countries, superstates, or a OWG.
My goal here is the goal of utilitarianism. That the most people will be the most happy for the most time.
I generally believe that if all people get an equal shot at life, and in the same time will be rewarded for their hardwork/inventiveness, and that no people will starve to death, or die from an uncurable desease, my goal is achieved.
What is your goal? |
my goal is that everyone born in a society and willing to better it will be granted everything the socciety can possibly offer them, and that no willing citizen will be left out in the cold.
and when you allow for economic desparity, you take away the equal shot at life. being born to a rich white family gives you many more oppurtunities than if you were born in a poverty striken minority family with 8 siblings.
if you're willing to work for society, to do whatever you can to advance it, you should be given everything society would give anyone else just like you.
edit: off to class, back @ 3 or so.
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Seeker
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London Ontario
Jan 1970
time: 00:26
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Re: different kind of slavery.
One of my adult students is a factory owner. His firm manufactured steel filters, spoons, and other low tech steel stuff. We've had alot of discussions on the 'race to the bottom' effect.
Basically, in a manufacturing business cost is the first and last consideration. He could not competitively make filters in Korea because the workers demanded higher wages. He could not compete with Chinese production on the basis of quality or speed, because price is the most important thing.
Now, he is relocating to Viet Nam because Korea is no longer economical. They (the common people)want him there. They love foreign investment. He is going to pay the workers a lot less than nike, but it's still a very high wage by Vietnamese standards.
Even in Korea, workers come from Pakistan and Indonesia, and Western china, to work for a wage that a Korean would starve on....they save this, because it's 10x what they make back home, when they return with 750 dollars saved up, they are very rich in local terms.
That's why I don't buy the evil industry argument. Yes, the company will pay the lowest it can, but for most that is a very good wage.
Imagine the situation WITHOUT the evil corporation. No job. A very desperate, primitive, subsistence situation.
I think people get attracted by this romantic notion of native cultures living in harmony with nature that never existed, and fail to realize that a few years of working at, by Western standards, 'slave' wages can drastically improve peoples circumstances.
The problems of industry are caused by these stupid nation states hanging around, preventing harmonized global safety, environmental, and other regs, and by trade barriers and subsidies, NOT by factories paying low wages.
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18-03-2003 14:09
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