18-03-2003 15:26									#1
	Apolyton Spirit Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Dear Apolytonians,

Developments of last days made me ponder about how we are getting along with each other in this team. Being one of the Consuls, I feel responsible for that, at least to a degree... if you don't mind, I woud like to address some of the issues that I currently feel a bit uneasy about.

What made me start thinking about these issues was the unfortunate events related to UnOrtho quitting from the team and then the pretty heated discussion following Trip's informal chat with CDG.

There is very little to be said about what happened with UnOrtho, as I believe everything has already been said. I fully agree that the individuals sending him nasty PMs should feel very much ashamed. OTOH, I believe what was said in public was hardly a solid reason to quit. Furthermore, I personally did my best to prevent such things from happening again. So, I will not elaborate on that any more.

Now, the Trip's chat that stirred so much emotion... I hope everybody will agree that it sort of "melted the ice" and opened the way to start talking cooperation with CDG instead of resorting to "cold mutual ignorance". I also hope that everybody will agree Trip made it clear to the CDG guys that he was speaking for himself and acting in no official role.

What worried me was that after Trip posted his chatlog, some of the responses focused very much on the fact he was not supposed to propose any deals, instead of on what exactly has been informally proposed. I do not really think it's that important whether the ideas he threw in were fine or not (if you read through the follow-up debates, you will find lots of people liking them and lots of people fiercely opposing them - so it's hardly a no-brainer). They were - IMHO - clearly presented as food for a further discussion, not something to be signed within the next hour.

Now, let's forget it was Trip and CDG and a mamooth trade treaty idea. I am posting this not because of anyone specific involved or because of how big this deal idea was. Let's speak general.

Considering my experience from Legoland and PtWDG, informal chats are an invaluable tool and an integral part of the DG diplomacy, if respecting the very basic rules. There are things very difficult to propose officially, exactly because it would be troublesome to take them back later - yet these ideas (or information) sometimes lead to a breakthrough. If our FAM or Consul threw the idea in during the "official" chat, it would have been very difficult to take it back later, as it would be seriously weakening the position of the said official regarding any future negotiations. The official representatives are supposed to consider their words very carefully. On the contrary, someone on friendly terms with the other party, having no official authority to negotiate treaties, can toss ideas around quite easily - all it takes to take such ideas back is to say "Sorry, folks, stupid me, I did not realize this and that and my teammates pointed it out to me. I am sorry it did not work out... hopefully, I will come with a better idea next time." I can see no bad diplomatic consequences to this. At worst, the said unauthorized person pisses his mates a bit off. But no harm is done to the team and the position of the authorized representatives remains strong.

I would (speaking personally now, not as a Consul!) actually encourage people to make the best use of their personal relations to members of other teams. As long as everybody keeps in mind there are things never to be disclosed to anyone outside of our team (see the Classified Information topped thread), it is - IMHO - okay to talk to other teams (just keep in mind that an ingame contact is required to be allowed to speak to another team, even informally). Considering the fact that we are - thanks to our experience from the intrasite PtWDG - likely the best organized team as far as various "rules of conduct" go, I believe we can only benefit from such informal contacts.

Another thing we should keep in mind is that even people that are mostly lurking here only, learning from the discussions, watching more experienced players, should also be entitled to have some thrill and fun with the game. Believe me, the feeling when you get to talk to someone from another team, possibly learning even a smallest bit of new information or just confirming what the team assumes is correct is something such people will enjoy tremendously. It's when you feel "in". Why would we want to tie and limit everybody by strict rules, allowing only a selected group of our members to actually do things. Note, please, that I am fully aware of that Trip's CDG effort was not an example of someone getting excited over a new experience... I am talking general now.

So, as long as individuals keep in mind that they have to make it clear they are acting in no official role and that they are obliged to keep certain facts secret at all costs, I see no reason to prevent or discourage informal contacts. And as Trip followed these guidlines quite strictly, I see no reason to jump on him and question what he did.

Which brings me to the point I had in mind when writing "Apolyton Spirit" as the thread title. People, this is a game. It's supposed to be fun for everybody. I do understand that sometimes something somebody does may take a bit of fun out of the game for others (if what that said person does is unfortunate). But I strongly believe nobody in this team would intentionally harm ourselves. I believe it's very reasonable to assume that whatever is done wrong, happens despite the original intentions being good. So even if someone does something wrong, let's double-consider before jumping at him. Chances are 100:1 that he did not mean it. Also... the best way to make no mistakes is to do nothing. The more you do, the more mistakes you do. That's how it works.

Whenever you feel strongly about something posted, whenever something makes you angry, hold your breath, and respond only when your immediate emotions cool down. Every angry or upset response implies yet another angry or upset response and so on and so forth... (speaking from my own direct experience ). Keep in mind that considering how our members post and behave in this forum, it is unlikely that they would mean to offend you, even if it may seem so at the first glance. And even if it really was their intention, then the best way to handle it is to ignore it. You should always realize that if what was said really was offending or rude, 99% of other people would notice without you saying a single word. And if they won't? Well, perhaps, the post was not as offending or rude as you perceived it then, right?

Let's always focus on what is said, instead of emphasizing by whom or how it's said. What is the problem with Trip posting a poll on building more warriors? Even if we ignore the fact that he is the MoW and as such it is perfectly appropriate for him to ask for people's opinion about building more units, it would still be okay for him to post a poll. If he feels like posting a poll on building The Pyramids in Apolyton, it's just fine. It woud be the MoI making the final advice and it would be the Consuls making the final decision. As I have said some time ago and others later repeated, all polls here are by their nature unofficial, as they are not and cannot be binding due to how this team is organized and governed. So whatever a poll "reveals" will be used as input, not output.

Getting back to the CDG affair, I believe that if we omit the emotions involved throughout the process, the resulting treaty proposal is very fine. Togas, bigfree1, Master Zen, Trip, and all the others that commented and voted in polls did a wonderful job of formulating this treaty, balancing pros and cons, evaluating all the aspects, considering consequences and possible CDG responses... That is what we shoud always do. That is what will make this game fun and worth spending our time for us.

If incidents lead to members leaving the team or withdrawing from active involvement due to upset or poorly considered reactions, then we will be - IMO - losing much more than we could lose with the worst ingame treaty imaginable...

Let's be nice to each other. Let's always think positive. Let's always question ideas, never their authors.

Apolyton Spirit!

	18-03-2003 15:49									#2
	Re: Apolyton Spirit Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by vondrack There is very little to be said about what happened with UnOrtho, as I believe everything has already been said.

I disagree. I only learned from this Forum that *someone* send *something* nasty to him, and I suspect that *somehow* made him quit. As for the rest, I have no clue what you're talking about. If you prefer to bury this matter, so be it.


For the rest: I agree with most of what you've said. I think the main thing that 'pissed off' people (if you can call it that) is that people feel that Trip might have been out of line in the chat, but I also think that the air has been cleared now.


Anyway, it is a good thing to be open to one another, and to create a team spirit.

	18-03-2003 15:56									#3
	Re: Re: Apolyton Spirit Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster I disagree. I only learned from this Forum that *someone* send *something* nasty to him, and I suspect that *somehow* made him quit. [... snip ...] If you prefer to bury this matter, so be it.

Well, that's what I meant... perhaps I have put it poorly - without knowing what exactly UnOrtho was PMed, we have no chance to understand better. And as PMs are private by definition and cannot be disclosed (an Apolyton general rule), we can do very little but to bury it.

	18-03-2003 16:00									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Let's always question ideas, never their authors.

Excellent.

	18-03-2003 17:05									#5
	Suffering from ads?

We are a quite big team. Tensions, disagreements and disputes are very likely to appear. What we should try to do is to solve them in a civilized way (after all we are supposed to be a civilization ).

I don't know UnOrtho much, since I am not participating at the SPDG and he is at another team in the PTWDG, but judging from the limited information I have, I see his reaction as excesive and radical. Also, it is unfair to take an extreme decission that might hurt the team without even trying to explain the reasons.

	18-03-2003 17:18									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Great post vondrack. Well said.

You make a number of excellent points, including that this is a game, and this is suppose to be fun. And 99% of the time, it is. Thank the great banana for that!

to Apolyton Spirit!

	18-03-2003 17:48									#7
	Support Apolyton

Great posts and comments, guys. This is the definitive proof that we have an Apolyton Spirit.
Btw, Oliverfa, I agree with your comments about disagreements and disputes...
But UnOrthO has been a great person in the SPDG, and his reaction has a lot to do with other events. I can understand him, although I think he should stay...

Vondrack, this thread is a great contribution to our team & community. Fun, friendship, cooperation, intelligence... That's what I'm looking for.

Like BetaHound, I would like to say to Apolyton Spirit!

	18-03-2003 17:51									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Through everything that goes on, for me personally, if I am being critical of someone, I try to criticise myself as well, making sure I am not getting so emotional I can't keep my sense of humour and humility. I think there is a lot to be said for this attitude.

I have been asked to coax UnOrthO to come back - I will ask him about the issue that caused him to leave.... eventually. UnOrthO and I have worked very closely in the recent past, and he has never reacted against detractors that strongly before, leading me to believe they were quite the a**holes.

However, vondrack's words reflect my own thoughts quite accurately. If there are posters who irritate you, WHY do they do so? Is it merely a clash of ideas? Learn to respect differences, and we will do well. I am not without my own pet hate here, but remember - if you really can't stand someone, just use the ignore function in your control panel, and things will move along all the more easily for you. And (almost) everyone has something positive to comtribute - if you see this then learn to deal with your personal issues with them for the good of all of us.

Offering practical solutions to all your forum-rage problems.

I was MrWhereItsAt.

	19-03-2003 00:28									#9
	Suffering from ads?

I couldn't help but to bust out laughing when I read this part:

quote: Note, please, that I am fully aware of that Trip's CDG effort was not an example of someone getting excited over a new experience... I am talking general now.

For the rest of the post:

Vondarck you are quite the wise man. I'm glad we have you as our leader. A leader that makes more than just decsions about our teams action but takes actions to ensure that the team is a "team".

	19-03-2003 07:37									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

great post. I agree completely.

And I would like to reiterate the value of chats. Our PTW demo team would have never got anything done without them.

It's the only way to get a "feel" for the other team.