19-03-2003 11:34									#1
	What Changes Do We Make If War Comes? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You can read the title.
What do we do if they do attack? What should our priorities be? How should this affect our build queue, city placement, etc.

Discuss.

	19-03-2003 11:45									#2
	Some of this is copied and edited from an earlier thread, but it fits here as well. Tired of ads?

I don't think we change that much besides, we have plenty of time to deal with it.
What does a War declaration from a Civ with no units to wage one mean? To me: squat. What do we benefit if they do not declare War? Not much; we will still protect our Settler's we will still build our defenses. CDG is not the only Civ on the planet and we must still prepare for the occasion of others meeting up with us as well. I say War doesn't cost us a dime right now. I say Peace on their terms costs us more. We might want to build a few more NM's than Warriors, but we were planning on that anyways.

Let's say they do declar war, if they have to also worry about the GCA, they wont send that many to us. We could deal with 1 or 2 Immortals easily by turn 20. I think this is moot anyways, because War would cost them too much, possibly the game.

They would have to delay their growth for a war; not very smart when they have GCA so close down South. I think the whole "War" thing is a bluff that they can't carry through with. It doesn't make sense for them. They'd be better off 'hunkering' down and expanding in the direction of GCA in order to claim as much land as possilbe while provide for the defense of this land. They have no land East or West to settle in, they are in a bind; but even more so if they choose to War with us or GCA.

	19-03-2003 11:51									#3
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Togas, bigfree1 and myself will do our utmost so that this DOESN'T happen until we're ready.

But just in case, I think the guys at the MoI and MoW should set up a contingency plan... you never know. CDG has not ceased to surprise me so far.

	19-03-2003 11:54									#4
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As far as the build queue goes, I think we now need 2 Warriors after our Granary and before our Settler. After that, 2 more Warriors, Settler, then NMs. NMs like there's no tomorrow. Our 2nd city should focus entirely on Barracks and NMs. These veteran NMs will be our elite guard with which we wage our war upon.

	19-03-2003 12:08									#5
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Trip, we need cities. Apolyton is ideally set to supply them.

The diplomats must buy us time to prepare the Barracks in other cities. Apolyton must build settlers. Or else we are lost. Too much invested to date.

	19-03-2003 12:15									#6
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I'm considering a wartime situation though. We already know they won't act rationally. They will probably do what is so often seen in SP games... they will cease buildup and put everything they can into either destroying or punishing us, or whatever their little minds can scheme up. We have to be prepared to meet that threat, even if it hurts them in the long run. A few extra Warriors, etc. will be a must. Hell, even Dominae feels that we need a Barracks first in our next city. I think an extra Warrior is just an obvious jump from one side to the other in this case.

	19-03-2003 12:18									#7
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Ahh. I thought you were saying Apolyton builds Mercs like no tomorrow. My bad, sorry.

	19-03-2003 12:24									#8
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No no, sorry, I just meant a few minor adjustments to the current plan. We would be sticking with the NM-Settler pairs, but fudging a bit on them would no longer be possible now. Also, we have to make sure that city #2 is dedicated to our defense. Apolyton pumping out a Settler every 8 turns puts us in a very powerful situation, especially ~30 turns from now, when we'll have about 5 cities total, which is a very large amount given our starting position. With subsequent cities focusing more on defense, the crux of our expansion would be on Apolyton. We may truly be entering the Golden Age of Apolytonia.

	19-03-2003 12:29									#9
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As Aeson has tried to point out, 2 warriors may be better in many situations than 1 merc. Especially a regular merc.

Let us make the large investment in mercs where there are barracks to make them worthy of the name.

	19-03-2003 12:36									#10
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No matter how you slice it, 1 NM is probably better than even 3 or 4 Warriors against Immortals. Without Immortals, CDG has no teeth. We have to account that they'll be trying to fling as many Immortals at us as they can in the largest numbers as they can as fast as they can. Any number of Warriors will be utterly useless against them. They will know we will have NMs soon, and they would be completely inept if they were to attack us with anything less than Immortals.

	19-03-2003 12:39									#11
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I agree with Trip here; Warriors will fall like flies to Immortals. They wouldn't need to back off and recover HP's, they would just attack once more on the following turn.

	19-03-2003 13:15									#12
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quote: Originally posted by bigfree1 I agree with Trip here; Warriors will fall like flies to Immortals.

To continue your metaphor: when I try to catch a fly, it escapes from me 99% of the time... also, flies come in large numbers.

I mean that 3 warriors can mean enough trouble (pillaging) to keep them from effectively attacking us with immortals.

If they do, we'll need NMs, of course.

	19-03-2003 13:36									#13
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We are not speaking of either Warriors or Mercs.

We are speaking of both, in measure.

let the barracks cities build vet mercs. Let the others build gnats who may grow to Swords.

	19-03-2003 13:43									#14
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The problem is that our 2nd city won't be usable for quite some time. Even if we set it up now, it will be a good 20 or so turns until we get the Barracks up, and each NM will take 6 or 8 turns to get out from then on. It's a good long-term investment, but not a viable short-term one.

	19-03-2003 13:48									#15
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There are chops.

	19-03-2003 13:48									#16
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NYE, you need to remove the <>s from the chat log you just posted. If you don't we can't see who said what. I always change them to []s.

	19-03-2003 13:49									#17
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Damn!

	19-03-2003 14:01									#18
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Is there a place to discuss the contents of the chat log?

I think the most interesting talk took place in the Apolyton-only chatroom, and not the one with CDG in it.

	19-03-2003 14:21									#19
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Yeah, the Elucidia diplo thread.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=80950

	19-03-2003 14:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yeah, the Elucidia diplo thread. http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...&threadid=80950

Okay, thanks.

Now, I un-hijack my own thread.

I don't know if we can depend on Swords to get us through. Depending upon us having iron is a crap shoot at best right now, and one we shouldn't aim our build queue around. What happens if we don't have any iron? What happens to those 8-10 Warriors which we have lying around when the hordes of Immortals start to appear? Harrassing their lands is all fine and good, but as soon as they get an Immortal out, that's at least 3 or 4 dead right there. We must be very careful in what units we build, and for what purpose we build them. For all we know, we may not get IW for another 40 turns.

	19-03-2003 17:32									#21
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What are the odds that CDG has iron within the reach of its one city? Not particularly great. If city 2 gets two NMs down and rolling around in Persian territory, we probably won't ever SEE Immortals.

Honestly, I'd reccomend Apolyton remain exclusively a settler site - always keep one city on expansion, says I - and City 2 exclusively - as in, never wavering for the next 100 turns - a military site. City 3 (probably placed somewhere north of us to cut down on the need for immediate defense?) can be tweaked one way or another.

	19-03-2003 20:37									#22
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That's one reason to trade for IW, and to explore a bit: we'll know whether they have iron or not.

	19-03-2003 23:38									#23
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If war comes, swap settler builds for Baracks followed by military units.

	19-03-2003 23:45									#24
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Does anyone know if other teams can determine who the aggressor is in a war through one of their advisor screens?

I know in SP you could look to the (foreign?) advisor and they would say,"Civ A has attacked our friends, Civ B. I don't know if we should trust them," or something to that affect. Does the same hold true about MP?

I only ask because we could then have some assurances if CDG tried to spin the whole affair with Gamecatcher.

	19-03-2003 23:48									#25
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I have a good feeling we'll get iron from our hills in the north. I also have a feeling CDG might not have it. Perhaps that is a reason why the are so aggressive. They might think their "window of opportunity" might end the moment we get BW so if they want to do some damage they will try and do it now.

Scary but true.

	19-03-2003 23:50									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon What are the odds that CDG has iron within the reach of its one city? Not particularly great. If city 2 gets two NMs down and rolling around in Persian territory, we probably won't ever SEE Immortals. Honestly, I'd reccomend Apolyton remain exclusively a settler site - always keep one city on expansion, says I - and City 2 exclusively - as in, never wavering for the next 100 turns - a military site. City 3 (probably placed somewhere north of us to cut down on the need for immediate defense?) can be tweaked one way or another.

On regular maps, seeing iron not too far away isn't all too rare. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they had 1 or 2 sources a bit to the south of them. After all, there's not desert and ocean there...

	19-03-2003 23:52									#27
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Does anyone know if other teams can determine who the aggressor is in a war through one of their advisor screens? I know in SP you could look to the (foreign?) advisor and they would say,"Civ A has attacked our friends, Civ B. I don't know if we should trust them," or something to that affect. Does the same hold true about MP? I only ask because we could then have some assurances if CDG tried to spin the whole affair with Gamecatcher.

Unless you have Writing and an Embassy, you cannot see the diplomatic stance that teams have with each other. With Writing, all you will see is that they are at war.