21-03-2003 02:33									#421
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Ladies and gentlemen the world is changing. Would world opinion still be the same if the USA had never even moved any troops to the ME to wage war against Iraq? I believe yes. This whole issue has clearly stated that the USA is in decline and is the target of many enemies. Our actions and our policies abroad as of late are hastening the inevitable IMHO. There are many who hate us anyway because of our policies in the past. The USA must change it's policies and not be so arrogant. However the world must work together and not be afraid of taking direct action to enforce international law.

Now OTOH all that is happening folks is this..........an evil dictator is being removed from this planet because the UN and world comunity were powerless to remove him. They were unwilling to remove him. Dictators today have it easy. They can get away with anything short of holocaust because the UN and world community have their own agendas. Those agendas are to serve the economic interests of their own and turn blind eyes to killing as long as the money is coming in. Maybe the USA is arrogant for taking matters into it's own hands and disobeying UN charter but the end result is evil is being purged from this planet. Now I fear that if they're not extremely careful the USA may be perceived as the next evil to be removed.

	21-03-2003 02:41									#422
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Reading through the 20 pages of this thread I was wondering why doesn't anybody mention the obvious: why are the antiwar feelings so high, like never before? Aside from the fact that people generally don't like wars, especially non-provoked, non UN approved aggressions like this one, what botheres most is the real reason of this war (the irakian oil) and the fact that the Bush administration believes us stupid. "We want to liberate the irakian people from the tirany of Hussein". Please! Comm'on, who could possibly be that naive? What is the name of the operation? "Irakian Freedom"? This makes me sick. Sure, the american government is spending billions of dollars to help the irakian people.

Is the war good for America? Sure, it will bring an american puppet government in Iraq, Iraq will further calculate its oil prices in dollars and not in euros, it will bring benefits for the american oil companies and for the military industry, the generals will be happy that they've tested their new weapons and strategies and proved the superiority of their military, and so on.

Ironically this war will be probaly good even for the irakians. They will likely live better under an american puppet regime.

So why worry? Because a lot of people will dye, or because the region could destabilize, or because the US's image and credibility will be lower than ever, losing friends and allies and gaining new enemies, or because the Al Queda will recruite twice as many people twice as easily than 'til now, or because the UN will have lost its credibility? Nah, why worry?

Edit: Thanks Arrian for posting the article.

	21-03-2003 02:45									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless ...Good article! And, yes, there are morons on both sides of this fence. I'm becoming increasingly irritated by the sheer ignorance of the more strident sort of anti-war protester: by stringing barely-understood terms together, they've apparently concocted the notion that the US is planning to kill at least half a million people by carpet-bombing Baghdad with bunker-busting cluster bombs with depleted-uranium warheads. Or something like that.

So we can steal their oil. Don't forget that part.

Is that a Kurdish flag you've got there, Jack?

-Arrian

	21-03-2003 02:48									#424
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quote: Please! Comm'on, who could possibly be that naive?

Exactly. This is the same way I feel about people who try to claim that Chile isn't really out to get a hold of Iraq's nitrates. How naive do they think we are! It's plain that this war is just about nitrates!

No blood for nitrates!

	21-03-2003 02:55									#425
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"A lot of people will die" isn't a great worry for me at the moment, because they were dying anyhow under Saddam. Unless those bizarre hybrid weapons are brought out from Area 51...

But the other concerns are worrying, yes.

I think the UN's credibility was screwed anyhow. It's hard to say whether this outcome has damaged it more than an outcome in which the UN fails to back 1441 and everyone justs sits around looking lost.

A no-win situation.

quote: So we can steal their oil. Don't forget that part. Is that a Kurdish flag you've got there, Jack? -Arrian

Yes.

	21-03-2003 03:08									#426
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Great article Arrian

thanks for bringing back intelligent debate to this thread.

I think it pretty much sums up what most people think, and what most "rational" anti-war people agree on. What scares people is precisely what you, Haupt. Dietrich and Tiberius have also referred to, that the US's image will be ineveitably tarnished, and I think we all agree that the US's political success throughout its history has been its ability to portray itself as a defender of democracy and freedom. Not entirely true of course, but people bought it.

After this war, it will be hard, if not impossible for the US to maintain this image of benevolence. Most people in the world, myself included, now view the US as an imperialist unilateralist agressor who is more a threat to world peace than any other nation on earth.

	21-03-2003 03:16									#427
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I fully agree with Master Zen. I've never, I repeat, never seen the US in a negative way. I always supported them, even in questionable (war) situations.
Not anymore. For the first time, the term "imperialist aggressor" makes sense for me (which is sad, at least).

	21-03-2003 03:21									#428
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quote: Is the war good for America? Sure, it will bring an american puppet government in Iraq, Iraq will further calculate its oil prices in dollars and not in euros, it will bring benefits for the american oil companies and for the military industry

The old War for Oil argument. When you don't know what something is about, just make it up, right?

	21-03-2003 03:28									#429
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Well, maybe you'll explain me the reason for this war, will you?

	21-03-2003 03:34									#430
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The reason for this war is a) that Bush believes Saddam to be really evil, b) it takes out a potential enemy, c) it serves US interests to have a foothold in the ME (with troops stationed in there) with radical Islam around.

The oil argument is absolutely silly. Iraq is already producing at full capacity (due to agreements to sell oil for food and medicine), so invading Iraq would do little to nothing to lower oil prices. Hell, before the threat of war, oil prices were VERY low. Only after it as the price jumped.

	21-03-2003 03:40									#431
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I've never understood the "breaking OPEC" argument. What makes people think that a post-Saddam Iraq is going to leave OPEC?

You don't destroy the OPEC by leaving it, but flooding the market with irakian oil, thus breaking up the OPEC's price control.

	21-03-2003 03:47									#432
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quote: On the other hand, the anti-war movement must now look for deeper arguments beyond the simple desire to save lives or preserve world peace.

-Arrian
Couple of points here.

As a pacifist, all one needs to oppose a war of 'liberation' is to point out that innocents will still die.

Just because an aggressor couches his words, saying that if we kill some, more will live does not mean that we have to change our argument.

We simply have to point out the flaw in this particular argument. If you believe that human life is valuable, how can one justify killing some innocents in order to save others? How can you protect human rights by taking away other's lives?

There can be no deeper argument to save lives, than the worth of a person. To compare life with other motives, is to cheapen the value of life, to put it on par with mere things.

	21-03-2003 03:53									#433
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As far as I know, Iraq is producing 1 billion barrels per year, while being capable to boost its output to 2 billion barrels.

And btw, AFAIK, Iraq is calculating its oil prices is Euros, and I don't really think that the Bush administration like this, especially that other OPEC countries might want to do this, too.

As for your reasons, they are correct, but not complete. Do you really believe that the administration would spend this enormous amount of money, without hoping in a profit? You're naive, my friend. Saddam is not the only dicttator in this world, and yet from all of them, he is the one being attacked by the american military. The good old Bush is trying to save the irakians

	21-03-2003 03:55									#434
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quote: Just because an aggressor couches his words, saying that if we kill some, more will live does not mean that we have to change our argument. We simply have to point out the flaw in this particular argument. If you believe that human life is valuable, how can one justify killing some innocents in order to save others? How can you protect human rights by taking away other's lives? There can be no deeper argument to save lives, than the worth of a person. To compare life with other motives, is to cheapen the value of life, to put it on par with mere things.

I don't follow.

If it's actually the case that more lives will be saved by war, how is this cheapening lives, or equating lives with mere things?

	21-03-2003 04:00									#435
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quote: As far as I know, Iraq is producing 1 billion barrels per year, while being capable to boost its output to 2 billion barrels.

Yeah, with a lot of costs involved to do so. Btw, more oil on the market would hurt his 'friends' in the oil business by reducing the price of oil to major lows.

quote: AFAIK, Iraq is calculating its oil prices is Euros, and I don't really think that the Bush administration like this, especially that other OPEC countries might want to do this, too.

Why would he even care? I know I don't.

quote: Do you really believe that the administration would spend this enormous amount of money, without hoping in a profit?

YES! What was the profit in Vietnam? Korea? You may think it naive, but American Presidents have always had idealism in their bones.

The 'War for Oil' mantra is a mindless slogan for those who wish to make Bush seem greedy and evil and can't open their eyes to see this isn't Gulf War I. To say that Bush is lead by oil and his oil friends, and then not realizing that more oil pumping would mean less profits by US oil companies (France has the biggest toe in the country right now and increased supply would hurt the oil companies who would have to reduce the inflated prices, caused by 'fears' of Iraq).

	21-03-2003 04:01									#436
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Imran:

If this war is NOT about oil (and yes, there are many other reasons but oil is definitely one of them) then why has the US already gotten US and UK companies to take control of iraqi oil post-war?

Considering the business background of Bush and Cheney only serves to confirm this.

	21-03-2003 04:02									#437
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius You don't destroy the OPEC by leaving it, but flooding the market with irakian oil, thus breaking up the OPEC's price control.

I would love to see that happen, but doesn't a high market price on oil benefit W's friends in the Texan oil lobby?

	21-03-2003 04:03									#438
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Source?

I think those that chant 'War for Oil' are the naive ones. They just say 'look at their backrounds', like that solves all debates. One wonders if their hatred for Bush clouds their vision so.

	21-03-2003 04:04									#439
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui YES! What was the profit in Vietnam? Korea? You may think it naive, but American Presidents have always had idealism in their bones. The 'War for Oil' mantra is a mindless slogan for those who wish to make Bush seem greedy and evil and can't open their eyes to see this isn't Gulf War I. To say that Bush is lead by oil and his oil friends, and then not realizing that more oil pumping would mean less profits by US oil companies (France has the biggest toe in the country right now and increased supply would hurt the oil companies who would have to reduce the inflated prices, caused by 'fears' of Iraq). [size]

Vietnam and Korea must be taken account in a different context. You seem to forget that the Cold War was behind this, and the Cold War was ultimately a battle of ideologies. US interest in fighting those wars was to prevent the spread of its rival ideology, communism.

This war is much different. Do you honestly think the Bush administration is not taking advantage of gobbling up that oil while takin out daddy's sworn enemy in the meantime?? Pleeease.

	21-03-2003 04:06									#440
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quote: I would love to see that happen, but doesn't a high market price on oil benefit W's friends in the Texan oil lobby?

DING DING DING!!

This is the point the 'War for Oil' people totally ignore! Oil prices are artificially inflated after 9/11 playing on fears of fundy Muslims blocking oil. If more oil flooded onto the market, oil prices would be reduced drastically, and oil companies would LOOSE money.

Bush's 'friends' are living it up now. They don't want to see Iraq produce much more.

	21-03-2003 04:07									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Source? I think those that chant 'War for Oil' are the naive ones. They just say 'look at their backrounds', like that solves all debates. One wonders if their hatred for Bush clouds their vision so.

You think. That is not precisely an affirmative statement.

Why do you insist that oil is not an issue. Source? Is it so hard to accept that your country, like all others, is greedy?

	21-03-2003 04:08									#442
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Jack:

Saving lives does not absolve you of the ones you killed.
How can you be sure that in killing someone, you will save more than you kill?

Suppose I use the example of James Kopp.

His argument goes like this:

Abortionists kill babies.
Killing the abortionist stops babies from being killed.
Since more babies will die if I let the abortionist live,
Killing the abortionist will save lives.

A better approach is to try to save both, because one life is no more valuable than another. We have no right to kill someone in the hopes that we will save others.

	21-03-2003 04:09									#443
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quote: Vietnam and Korea must be taken account in a different context. You seem to forget that the Cold War was behind this, and the Cold War was ultimately a battle of ideologies. US interest in fighting those wars was to prevent the spread of its rival ideology, communism.

Ideology? Hmmm... how about the US verses anti-American Islamic states?

quote: This war is much different. Do you honestly think the Bush administration is not taking advantage of gobbling up that oil while takin out daddy's sworn enemy in the meantime?? Pleeease.

So cynical. When your mom gives you some money, do you ask what profit is in it for her?

This war has nothing to do with oil! It doesn't even figure into the calculations in this war. Bush has always hated Saddam and that is the main reason for this conflict.

	21-03-2003 04:12									#444
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quote: You think. That is not precisely an affirmative statement.

And you think that this war is for oil. That's not affirmative either

Ok, how about this: I KNOW the War for Oil people are naive. Better?

quote: Why do you insist that oil is not an issue. Source? Is it so hard to accept that your country, like all others, is greedy?

Because it isn't! If Bush wanted to help his oil buddies, this war would make NO sense! If anything this war will hurt them by lessening profits.

	21-03-2003 04:14									#445
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [ Ideology? Hmmm... how about the US verses anti-American Islamic states?

Then why are bombs not falling on Damascus, Tehran and dare I say, Pyongyang?

quote: So cynical. When your mom gives you some money, do you ask what profit is in it for her?

My well-being. That's enough benefit.

quote: This war has nothing to do with oil! It doesn't even figure into the calculations in this war. Bush has always hated Saddam and that is the main reason for this conflict.

Doesn't figure because the profits won't be seen this fiscal year. Yes, hatred towards Saddam is one of the reasons. A big reason. So is oil.

	21-03-2003 04:16									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: AFAIK, Iraq is calculating its oil prices is Euros, and I don't really think that the Bush administration like this, especially that other OPEC countries might want to do this, too. Why would he even care? I know I don't.

Because if America would buy oil in euros instead of dollars, it would lose billions of dollars, that's why.

quote: quote: Do you really believe that the administration would spend this enormous amount of money, without hoping in a profit? YES! What was the profit in Vietnam? Korea? You may think it naive, but American Presidents have always had idealism in their bones.

The profit in Vietnam and Korea would have been to stop the communists. A totally different matter in a way, but it was too, in the interest of America. Only then the interest was called "stop the communists" and now it is called "cheap oil and backup oil in case something's happening in Saudi-Arabia".

So "The 'War for Oil' mantra is a mindless slogan? Then what are the american soldiers doing in the Gulf? Not now in Iraq, but generally speaking? Hmm? Everything that's happening in the Gulf has to do with oil.

	21-03-2003 04:17									#447
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because it isn't! If Bush wanted to help his oil buddies, this war would make NO sense! If anything this war will hurt them by lessening profits.

And this so called war-generated economic crisis is nowhere to be seen. Most stock markets in the world have gone up today...

These people are not thinking short-term. They are thinking long term, and this war will benefit them tremendously.

	21-03-2003 04:23									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Why do you insist that oil is not an issue. Source?

I 'd like some hard facts to prove the war for oil assertion rather than a collection of BAMs.

	21-03-2003 04:25									#449
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This war sure has brought out the morons...

	21-03-2003 04:27									#450
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So, again: what are the americans doing in the Gulf (Kuweit, Saudi-Arabia, Iraq, etc), if not taking care that the oil supply of the US is assured?