20-03-2003 00:39									#1
	The Persian Gulf War (Aug. 2, 1990–April 6, 1991) Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001293.html

A reminder.
This is not a new war.

"Allied and Iraqi military leaders meet on battlefield to discuss terms for a formal cease-fire to end the Gulf War. Iraq agrees to abide by all of the UN resolutions (Mar. 3)."

"532,000 U.S. forces served in Operation Desert Storm. There were a total of 148 U.S. battle deaths during the Gulf War, 145 nonbattle deaths, and 467 wounded in action."





The radical liberals can say what they want.

A question, before I research it myself.
Was France a part of the terms agreement?

If no, why were they a consideration at all?
Kudos to Bush and Blair for trying to be civil.

If yes, well, it speaks for itself, doesn't it?

	20-03-2003 00:42									#2
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I don't know whether they were or not. They were certainly part of the military coalition. But, given the litany of French obstruction of the disarmament process over the years, it is clear that France was protecting Saddam.

	20-03-2003 00:48									#3
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Slowwy you crack me up.

Just about everybody realizes this is a new military operation (i.e. war) and not a continuation of an old one. NK and SK never signed a peace-treaty, so would renewed conflict in Korea be a continuation of the Korean War?

	20-03-2003 00:50									#4
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He even says in the thread title that the war ended in 1991.

	20-03-2003 00:51									#5
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Some of the same troops are involved, the very same men and women who went in last time.

	20-03-2003 00:54									#6
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One entry found for cease-fire.


Main Entry: cease-fire
Pronunciation: 'sEs-'fIr
Function: noun
Date: 1859
1 : a military order to cease firing
2 : a suspension of active hostilities


2 entries found for surrender.
To select an entry, click on it.

Main Entry: 1sur·ren·der
Pronunciation: s&-'ren-d&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -dered; sur·ren·der·ing /-d(&-)ri[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French surrendre, from sur- + rendre to give back, yield -- more at RENDER
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 a : to yield to the power, control, or possession of another upon compulsion or demand b : to give up completely or agree to forgo especially in favor of another
2 a : to give (oneself) up into the power of another especially as a prisoner b : to give (oneself) over to something (as an influence)
intransitive senses : to give oneself up into the power of another : YIELD
synonym see RELINQUISH




Sava, you crack me up.
I knew there were uninformed people here.
Thank you for illustrating so capably.

	20-03-2003 00:56									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Slowwy you crack me up. Just about everybody realizes this is a new military operation (i.e. war) and not a continuation of an old one. NK and SK never signed a peace-treaty, so would renewed conflict in Korea be a continuation of the Korean War?

Legally...Yes.


Legally, this is a continuation of Gulf War I. Now, I won't argue the point that there are different objectives and a different set of circumstances than during Gulf War I.

If you are just looking for legal justification to attack, then the cease fire does provide it. The same set of circumstances exist in Korea.

	20-03-2003 01:02									#8
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It is the same war, legally and in fact.


More


President's Remarks at the United Nations General Assembly
Remarks by the President in Address to the United Nations General Assembly
New York, New York

"In 1991, the U.N. Security Council, through Resolution 687, demanded that Iraq renounce all involvement with terrorism, and permit no terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq. Iraq's regime agreed. It broke this promise. In violation of Security Council Resolution 1373, Iraq continues to shelter and support terrorist organizations that direct violence against Iran, Israel, and Western governments. Iraqi dissidents abroad are targeted for murder. In 1993, Iraq attempted to assassinate the Emir of Kuwait and a former American President. Iraq's government openly praised the attacks of September the 11th. And al Qaeda terrorists escaped from Afghanistan and are known to be in Iraq. "

	20-03-2003 01:05									#9
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Well, technically, Gulf War I never ended. American and British warplanes have been trespassing Iraqi airspace if not every day, so at least every week for the last 12 years. Quite often there have been attacks on ground targets. The air operations escalated for a period about 5 years ago when Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out.

	20-03-2003 01:07									#10
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We were just waiting for your Crown Princess to suit up to finish the battle.

(we couldn't wait longer, we don't want Madelaine to get hurt)

	20-03-2003 01:13									#11
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No number of technicalities is a substitute for a proper casus belli.

	20-03-2003 01:15									#12
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Hey, I know, lets hunt for obscure yet outstanding Cease-fires! Just how many wars could we re-start?

	20-03-2003 01:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey, I know, lets hunt for obscure yet outstanding Cease-fires! Just how many wars could we re-start?

That's an interesting point. Anybody know how many conflicts are on hold out there?

	20-03-2003 01:23									#14
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Berwick-upon-Tweed is still technically at war with Russia.

	20-03-2003 01:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 That's an interesting point. Anybody know how many conflicts are on hold out there?

WWII didn't end until the 90's, did it? Or did it end at all?

	20-03-2003 01:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Well, technically, Gulf War I never ended. American and British warplanes have been trespassing Iraqi airspace if not every day, so at least every week for the last 12 years. Quite often there have been attacks on ground targets. The air operations escalated for a period about 5 years ago when Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out.

Well, simply put, you don't understand what you're talking about.


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/worl...zone020510.html


"The No-Fly Zones
Areas Were Designated to Protect Minorities From Iraqi Attacks



May 10 — Iraqi defenses have regularly engaged U.S. and British planes patrolling the southern and northern "no-fly zones" established at the end of the 1991 Gulf War.

The no-fly zones, which Baghdad does not recognize, were imposed after the war to protect Kurdish communities in the north and Shiite Muslims in the south from possible attacks by Iraqi government forces. ..."



You see, it's not the U.S. that's not supposed to be flying.



GePap, and any other.
Research surrender terms of German and/or Japan forces in WW II,
contrast with the cease fire with Iraq.

You can start by reading the definitions of cease fire and surrender that I took time out of my busy day to provide.

	20-03-2003 01:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture We were just waiting for your Crown Princess to suit up to finish the battle. (we couldn't wait longer, we don't want Madelaine to get hurt)

She's already suited, but I wouldn't like to send her into battle. According to the news, she's an elite-class runner but a lousy shot. I've tried the new AK5 last time I was on repetition excercise and I found it hard to miss anything within 2-300 meters at the shooting range. Victoria thinks it's hard to hit.

	20-03-2003 01:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman No number of technicalities is a substitute for a proper casus belli.

Technicalities often are casus belli.

	20-03-2003 01:37									#19
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quote: Anybody know how many conflicts are on hold out there?

Well, most obvious is the Korean War.

	20-03-2003 01:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman No number of technicalities is a substitute for a proper casus belli.

Regardless of personal opinions, this argument has been settled. Today the 3rd Largest coalition of nations in the history of the world will bring a new opportunity for the Iraqi people.

	20-03-2003 01:40									#21
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Slowwhand, your link only confirms what I said. Perhaps you reacted to my use of the word "trespassing"? Technically, the no-fly zones are iraqi airspace even if Iraqi airforce is not allowed to use it.

	20-03-2003 01:46									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Anybody know how many conflicts are on hold out there? Well, most obvious is the Korean War.

Korea was the main one that came to mind for me also. What about Israel-Syria? Aren't they still technically at war?

I do have to say that I had no idea about Berwick-upon-Tweed

	20-03-2003 02:32									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Slowwhand, your link only confirms what I said. Perhaps you reacted to my use of the word "trespassing"? Technically, the no-fly zones are iraqi airspace even if Iraqi airforce is not allowed to use it.

You continue to misunderstand.

A part of the Cease Fire, that was brokered by the USA and Britain, stipulated A No Fly Zone by Iraq.
Iraq "air space" was forfeit.

In fact, Hussein has taken the same viewpoint as you, evidently, as anti aircraft weapons are occasionaly used by Iraq, and are...de-commissioned by the USAF.

Which is yet another violation of the cease fire.

	20-03-2003 02:42									#24
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If you think more about WW II, you'll realize that U.S. troops have been in Japan and Germany since the SURRENDERS were signed on-board the Battleship Missouri while the Allies set up a post-war government in Germany.

Nothing happened like this in the Gulf War, because it was a Cease Fire.

	20-03-2003 02:48									#25
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....I just released my Uncle is sitting in a tank, in the dark, listening to USAF and USN planes bomb artillary that may have chemical weapons on hand.

Man, I bet that sucks. He said his marines were ready to kick ass tho'. (He's a Master Gunny)

	20-03-2003 02:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Regardless of personal opinions, this argument has been settled. Today the 3rd Largest coalition of nations in the history of the world will bring a new opportunity for the Iraqi people.

Besides the US and UK, and Spanish engineers and medical personnel and our Kuwait lapdogs, who's actually joining the party?

	20-03-2003 02:55									#27
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You continue to misunderstand. A part of the Cease Fire, that was brokered by the USA and Britain, stipulated A No Fly Zone by Iraq. Iraq "air space" was forfeit. In fact, Hussein has taken the same viewpoint as you, evidently, as anti aircraft weapons are occasionaly used by Iraq, and are...de-commissioned by the USAF. Which is yet another violation of the cease fire.

Actually, the cease fire (which one?) is a little more complex than that.

The military ceasefire orders signed by Gen. Schwarzkopf and Lt. General bin Sultan on behalf of the allies, and signed by military representatives of Iraq, are different documents than the subsequent terms of cease fire approved by the UNSC four days later, and the NFZ's were established after that, when the Iraqis played games with the types of helo flights allowed under the military cease fire. So you have at least three somewhat different sets of ceasefire terms, and at least one was signed by all parties, but it's not clear if the others were signed, or imposed unilaterally after the original terms.

	20-03-2003 03:03									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Besides the US and UK, and Spanish engineers and medical personnel and our Kuwait lapdogs, who's actually joining the party?

Good question. The news continues to talk about the 30 countries that are actively supporting and 15 that are quietly supporting it. What does "supporting" mean is the question, right? The state department defines support as providing eithier military, logistical, intelligence, or medical support to the effort. Obviously, not all (or even anywhere close to most) are providing military support, which I think was the thrust of your question.

	20-03-2003 03:04									#29
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Then how is Afghanistan supporting it?

	20-03-2003 03:07									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Then how is Afghanistan supporting it?

This one was a laugher to me also. I imagine that US forces are doing some staging out of Afghan bases with Karzi saying "okay",