21-03-2003 02:39									#1
	The New Nobles Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The following thread has nothing at all to do with the present conglict, I have long been absent from this great hall of OT, I doubt any of you remember me, as I never made much of an impression. Please Read the following embodiment of a recent revelation I had.

In the Middle Ages, not the High middle ages, or the Crusades, but rather all those times we look sorrowfully upon as Fuedal, until only a relitively recent date, speaking in the broad terms of History, the world, or at least a goodly portion of it, was entrapped by a group of people who felt it their birthright to be superior to those around them. Those who fell around them, in the earlier times bound to the land, were called serfs, and were bound to their masters with the land, surrendering the toil of their hands for little apparent reason.

They, of course, were handing away their toil to the Nobles, the High lords, who lead the good life, and deserved, through blood or some other intangiable assset, to receive this toil.

The World has changed, but there is still a single group of individuals protected feircely by the government, and you and me, those people of the earth who work, face the new nobles, greater in number and influence than ever before.

Masquerading under the banner of Social Equity these nobles have risen, but I ask you to recognise true social equity. We are exploited my freind, by those who prosper under 'progressive' Socialist Regimes.

The poor, the unemployed, look to them, and bow.

For serfs one need look no further than the nearest Mercades, or the nearest taxpayer. We, the exploited workers of society have risen in stature, but we remain slaves.

We earn our bread, why should the government seek to take any portion of our earnings away? And if it truely must, why does it seek to discriminate against the wealthy? I am not a wealthy person, but my heart goes out to them whenever it comes time to pay taxes, they see massive percentages of their tax dollars seized, through threat of force, and imprisonment, to help those they will likely never see. Those who dare to exploit us, the common worker, alongside our wealthier bretheren.

But if you truely believe in Social Equity you will turn a blind eye to their prosperity, for when one judges, two groups are rarely equal. The current travesty of Affirmative action is played out on an economic scale, rather than allowing all men to be free and equal, we place some before others, as long as those few were once used. It was wrong when they were used, exploited, it is no better now that they crack the whip.

Oppose me if you will, call me a liar and blasphemer, but I speak the truth, Equality is for the blind, and while we continue to tax progressively, as long as Income tax is divided into 'Brackets' there shall be no equality.

Mark my words, hate them if you will, but mark them. We do not live free men until we are free economically from our Lords and masters, who may take from us as they please.

	21-03-2003 03:18									#2
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I remember you, Skilord. You haven't been gone THAT long.


Don't have time to read this, gotta go to work now.

	21-03-2003 03:31									#3
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quote: We earn our bread, why should the government seek to take any portion of our earnings away?

Maybe to run the railroad that get's me to work so I can earn my bread?
Maybe to allow me some income in times i'm out of work?
Maybe to asure that I get proper treatment when I'm seriously ill?
Maybe....

What a dumb topic

	21-03-2003 04:52									#4
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Go to a Charity, if those people feel a need to give some of their incomes it is good, even noble and admrable, but charity is not charity when received at the end of a gun. This of course being if you are sick or in some other way unwell, I think we should probably just go back to the poorhouse system insofar as helping the 'out of work' goes. Join the Army if you're in such poor financial condition, they'll feed you, and I'm rather sure that they aren't turning people away.

I don't get what you're saying about the RailRoad....

	21-03-2003 05:09									#5
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quote: Join the Army if you're in such poor financial condition, they'll feed you, and I'm rather sure that they aren't turning people away.

Where does the army get it's money from?

	21-03-2003 05:09									#6
	Got spare money?

Well he means that there has to be someone who pays for big projects such as a railroad system and the like...

Of course what people don't see is that if we abolish taxes and the like we will have to adopt a different way of life (not necessarily an inferior way of life) and that won't work with the filthy capitalists here (i'm growing more and more disgusted with them as I grow older)

I don't really believe in anarchy in a society this big, it needs a sort of a government to keep things running, without it the society would go rampant.. In ancient times when communities were still small it would work... the human races simply breeds too quickly

	21-03-2003 05:13									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Where does the army get it's money from?

From us, but at least they earn their keep there. They aren't sitting about on their arses waiting for welfare checks and are wrking.

	21-03-2003 05:17									#8
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quote: I don't really believe in anarchy in a society this big, it needs a sort of a government to keep things running, without it the society would go rampant.. In ancient times when communities were still small it would work... the human races simply breeds too quickly

I am asking not for anarchy, but rather making a case for a much smaller government which concerns itself not with society but to ensure that force is not employed against others, like the police are supposed to do. I think we should probably cut back on laws that deviate from the narrow course that I would have government assigned to, among other things the illegalization of several things.

The Government is put in place to keep the citizens rights protected, not to run off with the money of the people to do hell knows what.

	21-03-2003 05:28									#9
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quote: From us, but at least they earn their keep there. They aren't sitting about on their arses waiting for welfare checks and are wrking.

1. Their work involves preparing for a war that may never come.
2. I'd guess it costs more to train, feed, and equip a soldier than to feed an ordinary unemployed person.
3. Just how big can the army get?

What about public works projects? They are at least are more likely to generate new wealth than the army.

	21-03-2003 05:36									#10
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD The Government is put in place to keep the citizens rights protected, not to run off with the money of the people to do hell knows what.

You might be much less critical to your taxes if you inform yourself, and come to know what is done with it. Most anti-tax people are so because they aren't concious of the benefits that come back to them through taxes. Inform yourself, and you'll see there is much more of your money that comes back to you through public service than you thought first.

	21-03-2003 05:41									#11
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quote: What about public works projects? They are at least are more likely to generate new wealth than the army.

Alright. Join the Peace Corps or summat then.....

quote: You might be much less critical to your taxes if you inform yourself, and come to know what is done with it. Most anti-tax people are so because they aren't concious of the benefits that come back to them through taxes. Inform yourself, and you'll see there is much more of your money that comes back to you through public service than you thought first.

Call me crazy, but i would rather starve on my own money than live off society.

	21-03-2003 05:49									#12
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Call me crazy, but i would rather starve on my own money than live off society.

You know, there are some things an individual can't buy by himself. You can't pay personally for your use of public lights. You can't buy your own water-treatment station. You can't make your own trash-picking service. You can't build your own roads. You can't buy your own hospital's scanner if you need a cancer treatment. etc.
These goods and services can only be built if there is a common effort, and people share the cost as well as the profit. It is precisely the role of most taxes. Notice I didn't talk about welfare, which is an entirely other issue (even though I'm very pro-welfare). But saying "the State should only do the police, justice and military" completely ignores that some good services escape the individual's grasp.

Do you feel you are living off society when you walk on lit streets ?

	21-03-2003 06:07									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD From us, but at least they earn their keep there. They aren't sitting about on their arses waiting for welfare checks and are wrking.

The vast majority of people who use welfare do so only temporarily, and only when they must. For example, my highschool math teacher's husband got laid off from a factory, couldn't find a job (It was the 91 recession), and they were in serious danger of not being able to even pay rent.

He collected welfare for about 4-5 months while he looked for another job, to make ends meet. Luckily, he found one and they are now doing quite well.

Contrary to right-wing spin, that's exactly what welfare was designed for, and that's what most welfare cases are like.

Now as for this line of silliness:

quote: I am not a wealthy person, but my heart goes out to them whenever it comes time to pay taxes, they see massive percentages of their tax dollars seized, through threat of force, and imprisonment, to help those they will likely never see.

That's who you worry about? That's who your heart goes out to?

You are now officially "Misplaced Priorities Man!"

	21-03-2003 06:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Call me crazy, but i would rather starve on my own money than live off society.

We live in a Democracy, and our Democracy had decided, via our elected representatives, that the best way of ensuring that people live their lives is with a certain level of government-provided services, such as defense, police, fire, roads and highways, education, sewer systems, sanitation, social security, medicare, etc.

The government has decided, again through representative democracy, that the best way of funding such demanded public projects is through a system of taxation.

It's perfectly fair and just, because that's what the people want.

	21-03-2003 06:18									#15
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All those flashy words just to rant about poor people paying less taxes than rich people do? All that while innocent people are being bombed in this stupid war?

Your ignorance, self-righteousness and idiotism really amaze me.

	21-03-2003 06:29									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You go ahead and do that, SIKLORD. I'll lead the revolution to overthrow you, which won't be very short in coming once you pull the rug out from underneath the economy.

	21-03-2003 07:21									#17
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:sigh:

shall i conceded defeat ad call it quits (for now at least)?

Yeah... i probably should, being so vastly outnumberd and outgunned I shall beat a hasty, dishonorable retreat.

DAmn, i hate it when I have to do that.

Another day.....

	21-03-2003 07:26									#18
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Are you a surrender-monkey or what ?

	21-03-2003 07:27									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, but does he eat cheese?

	21-03-2003 07:31									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Alright, go ahead, i'll reply, i'll fight back if you feel I must.

	21-03-2003 07:33									#21
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OK then :

quote: Do you feel you are living off society when you walk on lit streets ?

(look at my long post above if you want the context)

	21-03-2003 07:44									#22
	Re: The New Nobles Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by SKILORD We earn our bread, why should the government seek to take any portion of our earnings away?

TASATAAFL - there ain't such a thing as a free lunch. If you want police protection, clean water, military to protect your arse. You better damn well pay for them.

quote: Originally posted by SKILORD And if it truely must, why does it seek to discriminate against the wealthy? I am not a wealthy person, but my heart goes out to them whenever it comes time to pay taxes, they see massive percentages of their tax dollars seized, through threat of force, and imprisonment, to help those they will likely never see. Those who dare to exploit us, the common worker, alongside our wealthier bretheren.

Yeah right. I direct your attention to Laz's excellent thread.

	21-03-2003 07:55									#23
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well, it's more honorable for me to fight now and hope this thread dies as I sleep.

	21-03-2003 08:09									#24
	Re: Re: The New Nobles Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger TASATAAFL - there ain't such a thing as a free lunch. If you want police protection, clean water, military to protect your arse. You better damn well pay for it.

I never said there should be no taxation, i simply opposed Taxation without representation, Taxation in which only an elite few reap rewards while everyone foots the bill. If you wish to have a government they must offer services for all taxpayers, not just a few.

I think half the stuff our government offers is totally uneccesarry, governments are designed to provide freedoms and maintin them (and, i will concede) grant those things out of the individual's reach, not to serve the poor, not to do anything other than simply protect rights and help everyone not a select few, every taxpaying citizen.

As for the CEO's that's sad, but you know what? It's nothing to with me. I don't pay their salaries. I pay the salaries of everyone on welfare.

As for Boris's teaher: I'll bet you the factory wouldn't have had to close if it had less taxes to pay (weak argument here, but i might as well throw it up)

	21-03-2003 08:24									#25
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ooooh... listen to the silence, the 'fake leaving and then make little arguments' ruse worked...

every time, every time...

	21-03-2003 08:24									#26
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So, the poor are the nobility of the world nowadays??

	21-03-2003 08:24									#27
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IIUC, you agree about pretty everything the State does except welfare ?

	21-03-2003 08:29									#28
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what does IIUC stand for, before i answer that.

	21-03-2003 08:37									#29
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quote: Originally posted by axi All those flashy words just to rant about poor people paying less taxes than rich people do? All that while innocent people are being bombed in this stupid war? Your ignorance, self-righteousness and idiotism really amaze me.

No, i don't care if they pay more taxes than the rich, i opose the rich having to pay a higher percent than them, but i understand that they make more, through the American way of life, and thus owe more to the government. This is the ay the raw percent system works out. The way it is though the percent rises every few (every?) tax bracket. This is wrong, because we are discriminating against the wealthy.

	21-03-2003 08:37									#30
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I think it is "If I understand correctly"