21-03-2003 16:48									#31
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The protesters in my home town were waving Sovjet and anarchist flags. Obviosly they don't want any decent people to join the rally. I rather make civilised protests here on the Civilization site.

	21-03-2003 17:00									#32
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The problem with having any standpoint whatsoever is that you're sure to have the same opinions as a number of morons. Just because I'm sceptical over the war I have to answer for stupid arguments from people both here at ot and in general. Having the opposite opinion wouldn't really mean an improvement either.

I usually find myself to have this problem quite often, most so when it comes to feminism but this war is quite a good example also.

	21-03-2003 19:42									#33
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There were reports that a group of protestors were considering storming Vandenberg AFB in California.

Vandenberg is a missle base, and has controls dealing with many of the "smart bomb" guidance systems.

Vandenberg Base Command advised that would be a poor idea, as the Base would not be able to distinguish properly between Protestors and Terrorists.
Good point.

He added that peopel of any kind that "stormed" the gates, would be repelled.
I have no doubt.

	21-03-2003 19:45									#34
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Vandenberg Base Command advised that would be a poor idea, as the Base would not be able to distinguish properly between Protestors and Terrorists. Good point.

why do not they use some smart missiles that can already allegedly distinguish between civilians and military personnel?

	21-03-2003 19:57									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre The protesters in my home town were waving Sovjet and anarchist flags. Obviosly they don't want any decent people to join the rally.

If they were'nt protesting the war, it would be the price
of eggs.

Protesting is their hobby, too bad they suck at it.

	21-03-2003 20:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso why do not they use some smart missiles that can already allegedly distinguish between civilians and military personnel?

Range becomes a factor.
When designed, optimum maximum distance was a factor.
Doubtful the consideration was the need to strike the gate.

Good thing you don't run the circus.

	21-03-2003 20:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Careful, by voicing your own opinions, you may be denying freedom of speech to the Dixie Chicks.

All right, so I used a bad example to illustrate an issue that concerns me. I apologize already! Geez!

	21-03-2003 20:16									#38
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Thus, there are people who want to abort the war, so Iraq hasn't been freed AGAIN!?

I thought we had different opinions on how to help the Iraqi people, but shared our opinion on how they should get rid of their dictator.

I thought we said:
- first diplomacy but after 12 years concider it failed

wihle you said:
- no, diplomacy can never fail! Keep trying!

I thought we said:
- invading Iraqi will result in the same number of death civilians as doing nothing, but keeping the same treat that he might use his weapons one day

while you guys said:
- No! Never do something that results in death civilians!

But now the choise of diplomacy has failed. (it HAS failed, we can't continue it like nothing happened) there's one option left over to reach our common goal (get rid of Sadam, free the people)

If you want to stop the war, this goal won't be reached.
The people will get back under the dictator who'll surpress them MORE than ever! (because he knows nothing will happen anyway)

Even IF this is the mistake of 'us',
even then it's still the best option to continue and free Iraque!

But if I'm wrong, what if someone of the 'stop the war' people explains here how something like stopping the war could benefit the iraqi people, by getting back under their dictator.

	21-03-2003 20:32									#39
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Don't believe what you see on the television.

I went to the Toronto protest yesterday which was reported by the local TV station as though the protestors were rioting and pushing people around. None of this happened, it was a complete fiction - I know, I was there - apart from 3 people who responded with verbal abuse, the response of passers by was overwhelmingly postive. The only event of the day was a few protestors got involved with some stupid white guy who came along to abuse them (the police took him away for his own safety). Add to that the arrest of a notorious local activist (who always gets arrested - so nothing new there) and you have a grand total of five arrests - probably less than last year's Christmas parade. Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.

As for violence in all the other protests I have seen it has been the protestors being attacked by passers by, not the other way around. I saw a clip from London in which a stupid white guy got out of his car and started kicking protestors, which was reported as if the protestors were being violent.

Don't believe the hype.

	21-03-2003 20:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen While I have no problem with these people protesting injustice (which they are surely right in doing) doesn't that invade my own liberty as a commuter? Must I, and millions more suffer just because these people are pissed off at something?

Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people.

Suck it up.

	21-03-2003 21:03									#41
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quote: Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people. Suck it up.

I remember discussions like this during the afganisthan war last year.
The afghan people were happy!

And don't forget that much people are murdered by the Iraqi regime!

	21-03-2003 21:44									#42
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I have begun protesting since the beginning of the war, not before. Yesterday was my first anti-Iraq war protest. I'm also encouraging everybody I know to go to tomorrow's worldwide protest (sorry, couldn't find a link for the specifics of each city).

My reasons for this are not to stop the war, because it won't happen anyways. It is to show my utter disagreement with the Bushies' way, of fostering war whatever happens, and the very fact that I do not support the war any more now than before the war started. Actually, I support the war even less now that I am witnessing bombings and the action of slaughter.
Of course you'll ask : "who cares about you disagreeing ?", and the straight answer is nobody. OTOH, if we are as many or more than a month ago, some people might get interested. Pro-war pundits cannot dismiss a huge worlwide protest with the "our support is increasing if you don't count these leftist lunatics" phrase like they do for local protests. I expect some intelligent pro-war people actually wondering : "why is the world opposed to this war so much ?", I sure hope they'll take their reflections into account.
It is also intended to support those struggling against the pro-war bigotry within the US, to show them the world is with them. Hopefully, this'll give them more energy to undermine Bush and Blair, and to help ousting them next time.

Lastly, it has to do with the future. Gulf War II is the first time we have seen such a worldwide opposition, in an organized way. Oppositions to WTO summits and such were sure international, but the location of the protests was restricted. Going to the protest tomorrow is a way of saying : "We haven't given up now that you gave us the finger. We will harass you even more next time".

BTW, I'm quite involved in politics, and I don't go to protests for the party. Yesterday, I had a sad face all along, and didn't participate to any chanting. Most notably because of some thread on this forum...

	21-03-2003 21:47									#43
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So you were foolish early, Spiffor ?

	21-03-2003 21:55									#44
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No, I was anti-war all along. I just didn't see the use of going to protests (where it freezed btw) while I was living in countries opposing it, France and Germany. That partly explains why there have been so many more protestors in Rome than in Paris before the war btw.
OTOH, now that the war has started, I see the use of showing the world opinion not giving up. I even went to distribute tracts to my old highschool today, to warn them there is a demo tomorrow 14:30 at République (if any other Parisian is reading this ). Most seemed interetsed, some said it was useless, and one was staunchly pro-war.

Before, it was time to protest in the US, UK, Italy, Spain and Australia. Now it is time to protest in the whole world.

	21-03-2003 22:43									#45
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but morally treasonable to the American public."

Theodore Roosevelt, 1918


Question for all you baseball fans out there:

Are Shock and Awe related to Aura and Mistique?

	21-03-2003 23:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy quote: Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people. Suck it up. I remember discussions like this during the afganisthan war last year. The afghan people were happy! And don't forget that much people are murdered by the Iraqi regime!

OK so your solution is obviously to kill more of them instead of using force as a last resort.

And Afghanistan is sure a great place to live right now. Girls can go to school, Whoopee!!! They can also get killed in the crossfire from one of the attempts to kill Karzai.

	21-03-2003 23:59									#47
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy quote: Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people. Suck it up. I remember discussions like this during the afganisthan war last year. The afghan people were happy!

You do realize that the civil war in afghanistan is as strong as ever (only, I imagine that some of the warlords have bigger and better guns now) and that the afghan government does not have enough money to rebuild the damages done over the past few decades of war, don't you?

The current rulers are a less oppresive then the Taliban, but that is hardly saying much. Then again, the Saudi government - more friends of the USA - are about as bad as the Taliban ever was.

	22-03-2003 00:39									#48
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I protest the protesters. Protests in USA are panic propoganda.

	22-03-2003 00:39									#49
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Osweld, do you actually believe that things are WORSE there?

	22-03-2003 01:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Osweld, do you actually believe that things are WORSE there?

Care to point out where I said that? I'm really geting tired of you always making up both sides of the argument and putting words in people's mouths. I specifically said that the the new government is better then the Taliban was but, again, that isn't saying much. I honeslty can't tell you how bad the current government is, since no one seems to care about the place since the USA has shot it's load. From the little I have heard, though, it seems to be more on the same level as Saddam in the oppress-o-meter, which is a signifigant improvement. Then again, the place has been in near anarchy for the past few decades anyways, and it probably hasn't effected much outside of the major cities.


What I was saying is that, overall, nothing has changed. The Americans did not bring democracy and freedom to the people, or signifigantly improve their lives. They merely rearranged the board. The Civil war continues, and there is no sign of it ever stoping. The country still does not have a working democracy, nor does it have any signs of moving towards that. Many of the Warlords involved in the civil war are just as bad as the Taliban, and even some of the former Taliban are still in the government.

The USA went in, blew the place up, installed a friendly regime, and then forgot it ever happened. The country does not even have enough money to rebuild -apparently the USA is more concerned with things like developing new nuclear weapons technology then it is in 'freedom and democracy'.

	22-03-2003 01:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Ah diddums. Your liberty as a commuter is compromised. Of course that is SOOOO important compared to the deaths of innocent people. Suck it up.

Well, most of the "other" commutters are anti-war or anti-whatever too. That only serves to have them against the protesters.

If you are going to do something, do it right.

	22-03-2003 01:40									#52
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I heard there were 1000 arrests in SF. This is an insanely large amount of people: in Athens, the most people arrested ever were 150, when the war broke out in Yugoslavia and there was extensive streetfighting around the US embassy.

I bet these 1000 people weren't even close to rioting.

I have been protesting with all my forces. I participated , in a 200.000 people demo in 15/2, in a 20.000 people demo in Saturday 15/3, in a 200.000 people demo yesterday and in a 200.000 people demo today and I'm going in one tomorrow. In 15/2 and today the police made extensive use of chemical weapons against the demonstraors and in both cases there are reports of police brutality during unprovoked arrests.

The police do NEVER ever arrest people who are rioting and are throwing stones and molotovs at them. They simply won't risk their necks. They are always arresting innocent people arterwars, specially those that can be easily intimidated by a night in custody.

	22-03-2003 01:55									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld From the little I have heard, though, it seems to be more on the same level as Saddam in the oppress-o-meter, which is a signifigant improvement.

oppress-o-meter. What a great word. It's a damn shame about MOO3's poor reviews, as it diminshes the likelihood of this wonderful term being assimilated into the national lexicon.

Okay, back to the war discussion.

	22-03-2003 02:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld The USA went in, blew the place up, installed a friendly regime, and then forgot it ever happened. The country does not even have enough money to rebuild -apparently the USA is more concerned with things like developing new nuclear weapons technology then it is in 'freedom and democracy'.

They are still there you know, along with troops from several other countries, my own included. The story there isn't finished yet. That country has been so badly damaged you can't expect things to change overnight. It will take a long time before we can gauge the success or failure of the efforts to improve their situation.

	22-03-2003 03:35									#55
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quote: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Good quote.

I like mine better though...

	22-03-2003 03:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Willem They are still there you know, along with troops from several other countries, my own included. The story there isn't finished yet. That country has been so badly damaged you can't expect things to change overnight. It will take a long time before we can gauge the success or failure of the efforts to improve their situation.

If I remember correctly, they only have a few thousand still there, I believe 5,000 was the number I read. They're mostly just looking for any remains of Al-Qaeda, and probably help defend their puppet regime from the warlords. I haven't heard a single thing about them doing anything about the civil war except for giving certain warlords supplies.

	22-03-2003 04:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld If I remember correctly, they only have a few thousand still there, I believe 5,000 was the number I read. They're mostly just looking for any remains of Al-Qaeda, and probably help defend their puppet regime from the warlords. I haven't heard a single thing about them doing anything about the civil war except for giving certain warlords supplies.

I don't think a 5 year wait is to long before we can judge how well things are going. The country is little more than a feudal society, with hardly any infrastructure left standing. It's going to take years before things improve there to any noticable degree, and even then it will still look backwards to our view.

	22-03-2003 04:22									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Well, most of the "other" commutters are anti-war or anti-whatever too. That only serves to have them against the protesters. If you are going to do something, do it right.

Hardly - we got an overwhelmingly positive response from motorists here in TO. You know - honking, smiling, waving, etc.

	22-03-2003 04:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by axi I heard there were 1000 arrests in SF. This is an insanely large amount of people: in Athens, the most people arrested ever were 150, when the war broke out in Yugoslavia and there was extensive streetfighting around the US embassy. I bet these 1000 people weren't even close to rioting. I have been protesting with all my forces. I participated , in a 200.000 people demo in 15/2, in a 20.000 people demo in Saturday 15/3, in a 200.000 people demo yesterday and in a 200.000 people demo today and I'm going in one tomorrow. In 15/2 and today the police made extensive use of chemical weapons against the demonstraors and in both cases there are reports of police brutality during unprovoked arrests. The police do NEVER ever arrest people who are rioting and are throwing stones and molotovs at them. They simply won't risk their necks. They are always arresting innocent people arterwars, specially those that can be easily intimidated by a night in custody.

I don't know what the police are like there, but the Toronto police seem to have learned lessons from past debacles. We had an unannounced protest in which we blocked traffic, held a "die in" at the busiest intersection in town, and marched down the main streets. Not only did the police not attack the protestors, they directed traffic to minimize disruption, helped people in need, defused conflict and made it clear to the protestors where the line was drawn. It was not crossed. All in all an excellent piece of crowd management done on the fly.

I'm not saying that the TO police are always great, but they deserved a gold star yesterday.

I've talked to a few cops at past demos here and all the ones I have talked to are anti war as well.

	22-03-2003 05:48									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't know what the police are like there, but the Toronto police seem to have learned lessons from past debacles. We had an unannounced protest in which we blocked traffic, held a "die in" at the busiest intersection in town, and marched down the main streets. Not only did the police not attack the protestors, they directed traffic to minimize disruption, helped people in need, defused conflict and made it clear to the protestors where the line was drawn. It was not crossed. All in all an excellent piece of crowd management done on the fly. I'm not saying that the TO police are always great, but they deserved a gold star yesterday. I've talked to a few cops at past demos here and all the ones I have talked to are anti war as well.

Julian Fantino, the Toronto police chief, is proposing some draconian regulations in order to control protests. The civil libertarians are already up in arms about it. I don't know the details of the plan though. One thing I heard was a group would have to pay some sort of bond in order to be cleared for a protest. Meaning only rich people will be allowed to have a voice.