22-03-2003 00:29									#61
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The pun wasn't even intended

	22-03-2003 00:32									#62
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Fools put meaning in a flag, both those who worship it and those who burn it.

	22-03-2003 00:32									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor The pun wasn't even intended

This thread is pretty much DEAD

	22-03-2003 00:39									#64
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You betcha, Che.
I even have more admiration for wimp flag burners, than fence-straddlers.

T. You come to Dallas, I'll do the same thing to you, that I did to your cat.

Attachment: t'scat.jpg
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	22-03-2003 00:41									#65
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand T. You come to Dallas, I'll do the same thing to you, that I did to your cat.

My cat is a persian white cat Hail, MY CAT:

	22-03-2003 00:42									#66
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Burning the flag of an evil regime can be a beautiful expression of the human spirit, IMO. Tass has been spot-on.

	22-03-2003 00:46									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 My cat is a persian white cat Hail, MY CAT:

Originally, yeah. Maybe it was a white Persian.
Poor thing is rather haggard now though.

	22-03-2003 00:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Originally, yeah. Maybe it was a white Persian. Poor thing is rather haggard now though.

	22-03-2003 00:58									#69
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Lovely troll(s) , but leave my flag out of it!

	22-03-2003 00:59									#70
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Did I get carried away there?


Must be in hyper-patriotic mode.

	22-03-2003 00:59									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Did I get carried away there? Must be in hyper-patriotic mode.

No. You need more images to be hyper-patriotic And some propaganda, like "Russia SUXORS AMERICA ROX HAHAHAH!!!!"

	22-03-2003 01:00									#72
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Flag waving.......Flag burning Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous You silly little man. We who protest this war take freedom and liberty the most seriously. Yes, we think Saddam should go and yes, we think he is a monster who should get his comeupance. However, what we feel is unjustified is this war because Bush was determined to go it alone and dictate his doctrine to the rest of the world. If Britain hadn't sided with us and Powell hadn't been a voice of reason, the UN Security Council would never have been regarded. There was a complete lack of compassion for world opinion, which IS tyranny. Sure, you could say that no one in the past ever got permission to do what they did, but I thought that we were slightly better than that. The U.S. is not much better than the Roman Empire - rights dispensed on OUR terms. However, since we feel this way, you feel it necessary to deem us evil...I'm sorry but I don't see how evil fits into that, how someone who decides not to agree with a simple man in a big white house can be evil.

We tried to get the UN to be serious about disarmament but were thwarted by France and her allies. I was among those who hoped we could disarm Saddam through the UN. However, that failed.

The US, the UK and their allies are now implementing UNSC 1441.

As to world opinion: clearly it favored UN resolution of the Iraq problem. Does the world opinion know, however, that the UN was thwarted by France?

But the people here on Apolyton are relatively fairly well informed. They know what happened at the UN and STILL they support Saddam and oppose the US and her allies. This is reprehensible.

	22-03-2003 01:02									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Lovely troll(s) , but leave my flag out of it!

	22-03-2003 01:14									#74
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quote: Seems that you are still having difficulty seperating yourself from your flag or government. (Even if what you say is probably true)

I replied to his comment of the flag-burning protestors actually trying to communicate with me.

	22-03-2003 01:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Burning the flag of an evil regime can be a beautiful expression of the human spirit, IMO.

I´d rather say it is an expression of the fact that those people should get laid more often....

	22-03-2003 01:38									#76
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I think that a general "have too much free time on their hands, no wonder they're unemployed" would be more diplomatic, but yes this is quite adequate.

	22-03-2003 01:39									#77
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gawd, I hate protecting the US government.

	22-03-2003 01:41									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I think that a general "have too much free time on their hands, no wonder they're unemployed" would be more diplomatic, but yes this is quite adequate.

Diplomacy has ended long ago...

	22-03-2003 01:46									#79
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quote: As to world opinion: clearly it favored UN resolution of the Iraq problem. Does the world opinion know, however, that the UN was thwarted by France?

The topsy-turvy world of the warmonger, where by not wanting war, France is guilty of starting the war. The Bush adminstration is composed of people who have always despised the UN, and going through the UN was simply a cynical attempt to gain legitimacy for the war. They were never prepared to accept that they might lose the debate, which they did in spectacular fashion. Having lost the debate, the second resolution was called off, probably because they knew that they'd not even get a majority.

Quite apart from the fact that gases and germs are mediocre weapons, there is no evidence that Iraq posesses them. If none are found, Bush and Blair should resign.

	22-03-2003 01:54									#80
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OK, some of you people can't take warnings seriously.

Slowwhand, Ned and Tassadar, see you in a week, unless y'all think about it, and decide it's come to Jesus time.

If so, you can PM me, and I'll get around to responding in a day or two.

	22-03-2003 02:02									#81
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I applaud the statements of Slowwhand and Ned. I think their statements were acceptable because they were provoked by someone acting in a hideous manner.

	22-03-2003 02:08									#82
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I second it was typical Ned. I don't understand how come he got restricted on that.

	22-03-2003 02:52									#83
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IMO, and most of you are familiar with many of them ... is that flag burning is disgusting and a true sign of ignorance. But America is built upon the freedom of being ignorant. Also, IMO, excessive jingoism and flag waving is just about as obnoxious.

Both suck, and you won't find me doing either one.

However... flying the flag upside-down is a sign of distress. And I think the country is in distress now. I congratulate the men and women of the Armed Forces for their service to this country. And also, the men and women engaging in peaceful, tasteful protest against our president. Democracy is about balance, and everybody being able to express their point of view. The second we prevent even the dumbest person from expressing their point of view, is when freedom is gone.

	22-03-2003 02:59									#84
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tia:

Don't be sorry for expressing your opinion, by reducing your thoughts to mere opinion. The examples you provide are of real patriotism, and not mindless flagwaving.

Your uncle was a POW for 8 years, in the service of his country?

And all this forum offers to such a sacrifice is to spit in reply?

Sad. What could motivate someone to survive in such conditions for so long? That is the real question we should be asking here.

Nationalism is represented in the flags of a country, as a symbolic measure of the national values, protected and defended. Despite what we are told, that Nationalism is a spent force; a divider, not a uniter; Nationalism has been THE primary force for at least the last 200 years. The concept of a nation-state, such as the US or Canada simply did not exist previously.

We may burn flags, but to do so not only denies the legitimacy of one nation, but also the rights of all nations. If one believes that nations are a passing fad, only then, can this approach make sense.

Suppose you disagree with the policies of the nation. Don't burn the flag, write a letter. Long after the flag has burned to ashes, the letter will still strike with the same thrust as before.

The irony of Tassadar denying symbolism becomes apparent when the only reason we care about flag burning is because we believe the flag is a symbol representing the entire nation. Otherwise, why would we burn a flag?

Edited: to tidy up grammar.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 22-03-2003 at 03:21

	22-03-2003 03:04									#85
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 tia: Don't be sorry for expressing your opinion, or to reduce your thoughts to someone's mere opinion. The examples you provide are of real patriotism, and not mere mindless flagwaving. Your uncle was a POW for 8 years, in the service of his country? All this forum can respond to such a sacrifice is to spit in reply? Sad. What could motivate someone to survive in such conditions for so long? That is the real question we should be asking here. Nationalism is represented in the flags of a country, as a part of the symbolism. Despite what we are told, that nationalism is a spent force, a divider, not a uniter, Nationalism has been THE primary force for at least the last 200 years. The concept of a nation-state, such as the US or Canada simply did not exist before then. We may burn flags, but to do so not only denies the legitimacy of one nation, but the rights of all nations. If one believes that nations are a passing fad, only then, can this approach make sense. But if you disagree with the policies of the nation? Don't burn the flag, write a letter. Long after the flag has burned to ashes, the letter with still exist with the same force as before. The irony of Tassadar denying symbolism becomes apparent when the only reason we care about the flag is because we believe the flag is a symbol representing the entire nation. Otherwise, why would we burn a flag?

Well said.

	22-03-2003 03:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I applaud the statements of Slowwhand and Ned. I think their statements were acceptable because they were provoked by someone acting in a hideous manner.

Wanna join them?

Oddly enough, people post here from all over the world and pretty close to the whole spread of ideologies. A lot of people might find other people's manners "hideous" but Ming and I clearly warned people about the tone of arguments and the low tolerance for insults, flames, etc.

	22-03-2003 03:12									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I second it was typical Ned. I don't understand how come he got restricted on that.

I've been looking for examples to make, since people have gotten a bit more heated and rambunctious now that the war actually started, despite Ming's and my warning.

When I saw the name calling and back and forth stuff, I knew I'd hit the mother lode.

	22-03-2003 03:36									#88
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quote: Diplomacy has ended long ago...

	22-03-2003 03:41									#89
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Well, I follow my grandfather's notions on this. A WWII veteran, he said the day they make it illegal to burn a flag in this country is the day he lights one up, because what the flag stands for as much as anything else is the freedom to express oneself, even in such an offensive way.

	22-03-2003 03:42									#90
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I would agree Boris.