22-03-2003 20:23									#61
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Frozzy
Isn't a tomahawk worth ~ $1 million
600.000$ AFAIK

Azazel
Actually, AFIAK, the geneva convetion says otherwise. You cannot use concentrations of civilians as valid defensive positions.

1) You can't attack another country even if president of your country want to attack. So don't tell me plz about law - then USA wants they at any laws.

2) Same convention says that you can use concentrations of civilians as valid attack targets? Isn't USA bombing Iraq cities now?

3) There is no other way how Iraq can defend vs USA agression. So they don't have any choices. USA have choices so of course USA will be responsible for the bloodshed.

	22-03-2003 21:43									#62
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Isn't USA bombing Iraq cities now?

We're bombing military targets inside the cities, yes.

	22-03-2003 22:09									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

DinoDoc
We're bombing military targets inside the cities, yes.

And without troops, YES! You think that they are military targets? Maybe they was some time ago, but not now. I'm pretty sure that they moved all military staff in schools, hospitals etc. (Bunkers are also unsafe)

	22-03-2003 22:12									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Maybe we should treat the cities like the Russians did Grozny then.

	22-03-2003 22:31									#65
	Got spare money?

This is civil war, and you are attacking another country. Our civil war is only our buisness.

And how americans treat native american citizens? As i said here in forums, don't tell about Grozny - you comitted major genocide and don't have any moral rights to tell about others.

Btw major terroristic act also made USA - you destroyed Hirosima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs. But that's not all. Before that, you don't bomb these cities so Japan citisens went to this 'safe' cities. This was made intentionally of course - to frighten them and to test new weapons.
And if you tell me that that was war etc. - i tell you that terroristic acts is performed against population (instead of army) to frighten it. So it was clearly not the act of war (at least how you explain luring of population)?

	22-03-2003 22:38									#66
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ellestar This is civil war

So? That doesn't keep it from being less of a war crime. Bunch of butchers, you are!

	22-03-2003 22:46									#67
	Increase Your PM Length

LOL and you are not?

We can't allow terrorists to rip apart our country. If Chechnya separates from Russian Federation, why other republics can't?

But you are not forced to attack Iraq.

	22-03-2003 22:57									#68
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And how you can compare several buildings with population of 2 cities and an entire civilization?

	22-03-2003 23:21									#69
	Suffering from ads?

that property isn't his. he stole that money from his people.

	22-03-2003 23:24									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ellestar And how you can compare several buildings with population of 2 cities and an entire civilization?

You tell me. You seem to be filling the role Goebbels here with you apologies for the brutal, criminal Russian regime.

	23-03-2003 00:05									#71
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ellestar This is civil war, and you are attacking another country. Our civil war is only our buisness. And how americans treat native american citizens? As i said here in forums, don't tell about Grozny - you comitted major genocide and don't have any moral rights to tell about others. Btw major terroristic act also made USA - you destroyed Hirosima and Nagasaki with nuclear bombs. But that's not all. Before that, you don't bomb these cities so Japan citisens went to this 'safe' cities. This was made intentionally of course - to frighten them and to test new weapons. And if you tell me that that was war etc. - i tell you that terroristic acts is performed against population (instead of army) to frighten it. So it was clearly not the act of war (at least how you explain luring of population)?

Chechnya IS another country, at least it was until Putin decided to re-invade it.

Genocide? Where in modern history have we set out to wipe out a people and culture? I know the USSR did it in the '40's by deporting the Chechens to Central Asia.

And I find it out a Russian is accusing us of war crimes during WW2. Didn't you people rape 2 million German women after you entered Berlin?

	23-03-2003 00:27									#72
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: The federal goverment is not responsible for education.

This isn't set in stone you know. Laws change from time to time, according to the needs of society.

And NO, I'm surprisingly neither shocked nor awed by this fireworks display. How can I be when I watch this from the safety of my living room?

But I guess that if I were there, I would **** my pants from the first moment. I know because I was always oversensitive against explosions. When I was little, I really hated fireworks and I was always crying in Easter, when their use is customary.

I'm rather sad actually. I'm sad for the waste of resources and human life and I'm sad for the arrogance and heartlessness of the people that thought up this whole operation.

	23-03-2003 00:29									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by axi This isn't set in stone you know. Laws change from time to time, according to the needs of society.

You must have a different US Constitution than I do.

	23-03-2003 00:35									#74
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Then they told us that collateral damage had been minimalised by "smart" weapons (yeah right?). Only 3,000 civilians were killed by Allied munitions in the first Gulf War. Seems like they held down the collateral damage pretty well to me...

Then at "only" 2000 civilians killed, the WTC shouldn't have been a problem at all...

	23-03-2003 00:45									#75
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As far as i know even the the iraqi Information (read Propaganda) Ministery said that the civilian casualty rate from last night was 250 wounded, and no deaths. If there were a lot of civilian deaths they'd get the journalists in Baghdad round to morgues as fast as they could get a bus there...

	23-03-2003 01:03									#76
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Not exactly, I think. You can't use them as shields, yes, but it works both ways, ie. the US can't expect the Iraqi troops to commit suicide by going into open, merely because there are civilians in the area.

Actually, AFAIK, the Geneva convention prohibits both firing at civilian locations, and defending from them. This is obviously pure bullshit, since there is no chance that such a thing would ever happen in modern ( or otherwise ) warfare. I've yet to see a conflict where this clause, and many others weren't broken multiple times.

	23-03-2003 01:05									#77
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by nato Then at "only" 2000 civilians killed, the WTC shouldn't have been a problem at all...

don't even go there. there is a difference between collateral damage and attacking a civilian building outright.

	23-03-2003 01:11									#78
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: You must have a different US Constitution than I do.

Is that a constitutional law?

Constitutions change from time to time as well. I find Americans really pathologically attached to their constitution, as if it were some divine law. I guess that what your country needs most of all is a radical reshaping of the political system, just to break this superstition. It will benefit you enormously as a nation if you dare to do that, even if the actual reforms may not be really radical.

	23-03-2003 01:15									#79
	Inflate your Upload Space

US constitution is pretty solid, even if it was meant for white protestant landowners when it was written i dont think they should change it, it may be for the worst.

	23-03-2003 01:27									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

erm, axi, let us not forget that this "undivine law" is what kept them from plunging into dictatorship.

	23-03-2003 01:31									#81
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: How ironic it is that we are using weapons of mass destruction (did you see the TV last night) to liberate a country which allegedly posses them?

When did we drop a nuke?

quote: There is no other way how Iraq can defend vs USA agression. So they don't have any choices.

So, wait. Since they don't have any choice, it is alright for them to let civilians die to accomplish their goals?

	23-03-2003 01:32									#82
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

i think he's (incorrectly) referring to MOABs.

those arent nukes, albiet fairly powerful.

	23-03-2003 01:33									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I thought we were using 2,000 lb JDAMs....

	23-03-2003 01:34									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: There is no other way how Iraq can defend vs USA agression. So they don't have any choices. So, wait. Since they don't have any choice, it is alright for them to let civilians die to accomplish their goals?

war is horrible. ideally, there would be war and cilivian life, but all too often the two become intertwined in a horrific swirl of blood.

in all honesty, what saddam does (station troops in schools etc) seems extremely rational when facing an army you cannot beat, as sick as it may be.

	23-03-2003 01:39									#85
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

lol

	23-03-2003 02:33									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Jaakko This outburst displays some amazing naivete. Yes, the RG sure has cheek to defend Baghdad in the most effective way (ie. to hunker down within the city), and not come out in the open so the US can kill them all from the air. It's a perfectly acceptable military solution, and any civilian casualties resulting from defending the city are collateral damage in the purest definition of the word. Any country in the world would do the same, given the circumstances.

duh

Can I not still insult them for this dishonorable tactic without being accused of naivete?

	23-03-2003 03:35									#87
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX don't even go there. there is a difference between collateral damage and attacking a civilian building outright.

Yeah, it is true there is a big difference in intentions. Of course that doesn't help the dead much, but yeah.

But what I was responding to just seemed really hypocritical. 2000 dead Americans requires a completely changed world, but 3000 dead Iraqis is quite acceptable.

Theres never any good answers with things like this.

	23-03-2003 04:56									#88
	Remove this text

Here's another one from the Ag-style of war commentary:

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads - they are not there accidentally"
-30s Soviet infantry manual

quote: Don't believe what officials tell you

So now we shouldn't beleive them when they say that the war may drag out and become dangerous closer to Baghdad

quote: Don't believe what the news tells you - the fog of war is just that. And the embedded newspeople are effectively controlled by the military.

Agathon, I disagree here. Perhaps Cuba is Commie, but the USA is not. Besides, the media is as wimpy as you get. CNN has a fit every time an American soldier is injured or we don't break a new speed record to Baghdad.

Asher, I myself was mildly amused by your post, but yours was uncannily accurate.

	23-03-2003 05:00									#89
	Tired of ads?

Uber, you got your location wrong, every bomb we drop blows a reminder that calc's huge chunk of his paycheck is blown away.

	23-03-2003 05:23									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Thud Here's another one from the Ag-style of war commentary: So now we shouldn't beleive them when they say that the war may drag out and become dangerous closer to Baghdad?

Of course we shouldn't believe what officials say when we know that they have good reason to lie and have actually lied in war situations. If we had other evidence to believe what they said is true then that's fine - but that other evidence is doing all the work.

Perhaps not everyone sees that this is obvious.