22-03-2003 06:10									#1
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For me? Last night was getting there, but I still haven't seen the full might of the American and British military.

	22-03-2003 06:15									#2
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We will not see the full might of the U or Uk military: the ful might would kill lots of people and created a diplomatic backlash agains the US and UK.

The attacks are impressive, but since they are os targeted, the extent of the destruction is limited (which is the plan. we have to rebuild anything we break). Again, this aint Grozny and we aint the Ruskies.

	22-03-2003 06:17									#3
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I agree completely with GePap.

BTW, I'm "shocked and awed" by what I just said...

	22-03-2003 06:19									#4
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You never want to see that US has to unleash its full might.

	22-03-2003 06:24									#5
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They have said the 'shock and awe' part hasn't happened yet.

	22-03-2003 06:36									#6
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The shock and awe part begun tonight, at least according to FOX, who was blaring this before any bombing or Baghdad for the night had begun.

	22-03-2003 06:44									#7
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Really? I was under the assumption it wouldn't occur until tomorrow, at the earliest.

	22-03-2003 06:45									#8
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another poster wrote:

quote: Why I hate the war: It means that in every place on the web I end up reading posts by clearly insane, mouth-foaming Americans gloating in their wholescale genocide of the iraqui populace, which means I have to be angry all the time. It's really annoying.

still applicable

	22-03-2003 07:49									#9
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Well written.

My question is: how many Iraqi civilians have been killed in the war by the US/UK attack so far?

	22-03-2003 07:51									#10
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I've been shocked, but there is certainly nothing to be in awe about

	22-03-2003 08:00									#11
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UR, last I heard: One confirmed dead...and he was Jordanian. From that first missile targetting Saddam himself, I believe.

	22-03-2003 08:00									#12
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Weren't you in awe from the kewl pyrotechnics ? I thought it was the very purpose of the live footage !

	22-03-2003 08:02									#13
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Drosedars : from what I've seen in the News thread, there has also been a dead driving a bus between Iraq and Palestine. And Agathon talked about the destroyed civilian vehicles shown on BBC.

	22-03-2003 08:05									#14
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 another poster wrote: still applicable

yet another poster wrote:

quote: Funny, everywhere I go on the web I find clearly insane, mouth-foaming anti-war people writing articles like ‘Calling a Spade a Spade: American Fascism’, which means I have to be in a constant state of mild amusement. I just want it to stop.

which is also still applicable.

	22-03-2003 08:09									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Drosedars : from what I've seen in the News thread, there has also been a dead driving a bus between Iraq and Palestine. And Agathon talked about the destroyed civilian vehicles shown on BBC.

And the row of dead civilians lying next to them.

Can I say a few things to people who are perhaps too young to remember GW1.

1) Don't believe what officials tell you. Their mission is to give the most favourable impression of events that they can - they will do this with no respect for the truth (it's their job). This means not mentioning civilian casualties and overstating successes. Last time they told us the Patriots were working (they weren't). Then they told us that they'd destroyed SCUDS (they were tanker trucks). Then they told us that collateral damage had been minimalised by "smart" weapons (yeah right?). We didn't see pictures of the masscre on the road out of Kuwait until much later.

2) Don't believe what the news tells you - the fog of war is just that. And the embedded newspeople are effectively controlled by the military.

3) If they aren't talking about something - it's probably not going as well as they hoped.

	22-03-2003 08:13									#16
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Excellent post Ag.

	22-03-2003 08:16									#17
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Same as Monkspider here

	22-03-2003 08:20									#18
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quote: Funny, everywhere I go on the web I find clearly insane, mouth-foaming anti-war people writing articles like ‘Calling a Spade a Spade: American Fascism’, which means I have to be in a constant state of mild amusement. I just want it to stop.

Excellent post Asher. I thought about it and I'm glad someone took the time to do it.

	22-03-2003 08:24									#19
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Excellent post Ag.

Thanks guys. I guess it's borne of bitter experience.

Here's another couple:

4) Never take enemy soldiers lightly. Often our side will suggest that they have low morale or are poorly trained or are naturally cowards. The people actually fighting never believe this because they know it is often fatal to do so. Ask General Custer or any of the dead men who underestimated "the natives".

5) If our side seems to be having a very easy time, the reason for this is probably not the one that the officials are giving. For example, the Iraqi missile attacks on Kuwait are painfully inept - but don't assume that the Iraqis don't know that their equipment isn't very good and aren't just using them for mild harassment. They also appear to have placed their worst troops in the south, which would make initial progress quick.

6) Don't assume that the Iraqi generals are completely stupid. They aren't.

	22-03-2003 08:27									#20
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quote: Then they told us that collateral damage had been minimalised by "smart" weapons (yeah right?).

Only 3,000 civilians were killed by Allied munitions in the first Gulf War. Seems like they held down the collateral damage pretty well to me...

	22-03-2003 08:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Then they told us that collateral damage had been minimalised by "smart" weapons (yeah right?). Only 3,000 civilians were killed by Allied munitions in the first Gulf War. Seems like they held down the collateral damage pretty well to me...

An unfortunate choice of words..

3,000 is a lot of dead people. It was certainly enough for the US administration to basically declare war on everyone they don't like.

Similarly, Iraq was not invaded in GW1: thus its civilians were not threatened by ground forces.

And in GW1 the Iraqis really didn't want to fight (and the RG didn't expect to). Given that they are fighting for their own homeland some might be a bit more keen this time. I don't know that for sure, but it stands to reason.

	22-03-2003 08:34									#22
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Just because you have unrealistic goals in regards to civilian loss of life doesn't mean that the military lied to us during the first Gulf War...

	22-03-2003 08:38									#23
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im really dissapointed, i wanted to see people on fire running out of mosques on friday...

	22-03-2003 08:52									#24
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I think that in this particular case the enemy does have poor morale and equipment.

I mean, a whole division surrendered. That's not supposed to happen if you're facing a well-honed fighting force.

And there's no reason to assume genocide when there's absolutely no information whatsoever.

	22-03-2003 08:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Just because you have unrealistic goals in regards to civilian loss of life doesn't mean that the military lied to us during the first Gulf War...

Now you're getting desperate.

1) I don't have unrealistic goals with regard to the loss of civilian life. I have no idea of how many civilian lives will be lost in this war. I have seen various estimates but I just don't know. Much depends on whether the Iraqis just give up. However, I don't know whether they will - nobody really will until it comes to the crunch.

However, common sense indicates that it will likely be worse this time because, if the coalition has to take cities by ground force, civilians will be caught up in the destruction - this didn't happen last time. Moreover, Iraq hasn't been able to feed its people properly since GW1 so the cessation of oil for food may lead to mass famine in short order (that's a lot of people to feed). There may well be hundreds of thousands of refugees who will have no access to proper medical care and for whom food will be in short supply. If you look at the situation of the Kurdish refugees last time, this might give you an indication on what it might be like in coming weeks.

2) The military did lie to us in GW1. That is an accepted fact. I gave you cases in which they absolutely did lie. Do you wish to dispute these? If so you will have a hard time of it. Furthermore, it is also common sense that the coalition side will want to manipulate the news to its advantage. This is, again, mere common sense.

	22-03-2003 08:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I think that in this particular case the enemy does have poor morale and equipment. I mean, a whole division surrendered. That's not supposed to happen if you're facing a well-honed fighting force. And there's no reason to assume genocide when there's absolutely no information whatsoever.

A whole division of the worst troops Iraq has to offer. That's why they were placed in the South. You don't place your best troops at the front if you are planning a desperate defensive action.

"Genocide" is a bad choice of word and I didn't use it. Again, common sense tells us that civilian casualties are likely to be significant if elite Iraqi troops attempt to defend cities by using urban guerilla tactics. Coalition casualties will be higher if this is the case (they have admitted this - which is why they are trying to avoid it).

	22-03-2003 09:00									#27
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From Lancer (who could hardly be expected to agree with me.

quote: I'm very concerned about this upcoming battle. This is where the coalition tech edge will be the least. Basicly an army is going to have to dig another army out of a major city. In short, imagine you and a bunch of other guys with guns being sent in to a city to attack another bunch of guys with guns who have had months to dig in deep. Multiple lines of defense, hidden fire traps, mines, booby traps...and a population of unknown loyalties, many of whom will no doubt be sypathetic to their countrymen. Last I heard there are three republican guard divisions dug in within Baghdad, likely more. If the Iraqis fight, and the republican guard will fight, it will be...horrific.

I agree.

	22-03-2003 09:29									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Excellent post Asher. I thought about it and I'm glad someone took the time to do it.

I didn't mean to imply I wrote it, Sean@CG wrote it (from the same thread paiktis got his from)

	22-03-2003 09:41									#29
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I'm so disillusioned...

	22-03-2003 09:50									#30
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Just wanted to clarify.