23-03-2003 19:02									#61
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Interesting enough, most Americans do not despise Germany for being opposed to war like they do France. I for one respect the position of Germany in light of their past history. France is another story but I think the anti-french fervor is childish. I have come to accept the idea that Europe in general is way to the left of reality so let them live in a dream world if they choose.

	23-03-2003 20:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I still mentioned the South in the U.S. civil war. The south was hit hard by the war, especially with Sherman's march. Yet the South was an is very pro-war. I just don't believe that argument for the reason germany is the way that it is.

The Civil War was 140 years ago, WWII survivors are still around.

Plus, the South didn't undergo near the devastation that German cities did, nor a process akin to De-Nazification that happened in Germany. Lincoln had advocated a policy of reconciliation, and that was greatly the case. This allowed the Southerners to maintain pride in their war effort and create the myth of the "Lost Cause." Thus the war became a badge of honor.

There was also no issue of a Holocaust to contend with.

	23-03-2003 20:51									#63
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Stop the threadjacking This is about germany´s hidden agenda! I expect some great conspiracy theories...

Shhh...

They saved Hilter's Brain

	23-03-2003 20:53									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Interesting enough, most Americans do not despise Germany for being opposed to war like they do France. I for one respect the position of Germany in light of their past history. France is another story but I think the anti-french fervor is childish. I have come to accept the idea that Europe in general is way to the left of reality so let them live in a dream world if they choose.

I think this is largely because Germany was really powerless to hinder it, since they don't have a veto power on the UNSC, like France does. France also has to contend with the constant francophobia in the U.S. and U.K. that existed well before this. When a country is already the butt of so many jokes, it's easy to make them a target of scorn when they take such a position against you.

	23-03-2003 21:13									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Shhh... They saved Hilter's Brain

	23-03-2003 22:47									#66
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Exactly BeBro

Nono, we honestly dont know what you are talking about

	24-03-2003 03:57									#68
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"All I can says, is that with Germany and France in bed together, Belgium better watch is hat, its coat, and its ass."

Belgium has actually the same point of view as France and Germany, our relations with them are currently extremely good and even if they would attack would Britain help us like they have always done.

	24-03-2003 05:42									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY Exactly BeBro Nono, we honestly dont know what you are talking about

Right, is this you? You see nothing, you hear nothing
you know nothing.

	24-03-2003 05:51									#70
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The Two Master Race, Master minds with the brainless
American awaitin' Der Fufher's brain.

Attachment: 3hogan.jpg
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	24-03-2003 06:06									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think this is largely because Germany was really powerless to hinder it, since they don't have a veto power on the UNSC, like France does. France also has to contend with the constant francophobia in the U.S. and U.K. that existed well before this. When a country is already the butt of so many jokes, it's easy to make them a target of scorn when they take such a position against you.

My father fought in ww2 and he has nothing but good to say about France. He was stationed there for a few years and he was befriended by a French family. I think it is unfortunate that we will end up enemies before this is over. If the US wants to be a sovereign nation then so is France. People need to grow up. BTW, according to my dad France has always resented the US bombing of their country to drive out the Nazis. He said the Germans left but the French stayed inspite of the warnings by leaflets and many were killed.

	24-03-2003 06:29									#72
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AFAIK, this resentment exists only in the very populations that got bombed. True, other people know about it, and think it would have been better without. But the only person I know who has been really complaining about the bombings is a friend from Normandy, in which many historical buildings got destroyed.
(Rebuilt Normandy cities are ugly btw)

	24-03-2003 06:32									#73
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My dad spent a lot of time in Lehavre.

	24-03-2003 06:58									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln My dad spent a lot of time in Lehavre.

That may explain it : Le Havre was among the most bombed French cities in WW2. AFAIK (it's hearsay, I never went there), there is nearly no building older than the war there, meaning the whole city was razed.It is normal its inhabitants have resentment for this.

	24-03-2003 07:04									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is normal its inhabitants have resentment for this.

That is just stupid, Blame the Nazis

That like my dad and uncles resenting the french for
having to do D-day cause they got invaded. They blame the Nazis.

edit: clarity

	24-03-2003 07:08									#76
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No doubt.

Most people can make a distinction between the Nazis and Germans. Up until recently most Americans had an overwhelming affection for Germans.

	24-03-2003 07:08									#77
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I don't know any person from Le Havre, but I highly doubt they don't thank Americans for the Liberation during WW2 (heck, everybody does). But I can imagine they aren't happy to have had their cities destroyed, and have lost many people they knew in the process.
Just a guess though.

	24-03-2003 09:38									#78
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Secondings Spiffors thoughts.
There seems to be a certain difference between fighting the military machinery of the Nazis and using Bomberfleets to level cities to the ground

	24-03-2003 10:00									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No doubt. Most people can make a distinction between the Nazis and Germans. Up until recently most Americans had an overwhelming affection for Germans.

I don't know about that, but there certainly wasn't the kind of instant animosity with which, even before this war business, Americans regarded the French. I honestly don't think the opinion toward the Germans has changed that much, because Schroeder has kept a lower profile than Chirac, and German pacificism, even when it conflicts with U.S. policy, is understood and seen as a good thing.

I know a few folks who are doing the idiotic boycott of French things, and none of them has any notion of boycotting anything German. How could they give up their Beamers?

	24-03-2003 10:04									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln My father fought in ww2 and he has nothing but good to say about France. He was stationed there for a few years and he was befriended by a French family. I think it is unfortunate that we will end up enemies before this is over. If the US wants to be a sovereign nation then so is France. People need to grow up. BTW, according to my dad France has always resented the US bombing of their country to drive out the Nazis. He said the Germans left but the French stayed inspite of the warnings by leaflets and many were killed.

My grandfather had a very different experience. He has almost nothing nice to say about the French. He recounts being treated pretty badly by a lot of French civilians while he was in Europe during the war, and on subsequent visits, the French would react even more negatively to him when learning he was a veteran. What he liked was interacting with the German POWs, whom he said were generally polite, good-natured and eager to discuss American cinema.

	24-03-2003 10:04									#81
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quote: I know a few folks who are doing the idiotic boycott of French things, and none of them has any notion of boycotting anything German. How could they give up their Beamers?

This is a good point. It's easy to boycott French goods as they don't produce anything of any value. The Germans make quality products, so boycotts against them will be much less likely.

	24-03-2003 10:08									#82
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Germany won't stay pacifist forever. As time progress, the memory of WW2 will fade. After the immediate descendents of the WW2 participants have died, and the memory of the war is relegated to history, Germany will once again take a military position in the world. I think this U.S. situation might be a good thing. It could reawaken some German Nationalism, and allow the German people to get their heads out of their collective asses.
The world has been brainwashed for years into thinking that the Germans are evil, and I think that the Germans have bought into that myth, a myth that originated in the great power posturing of the late 19th century. Soviet atrocities were far worse than Nazi atrocities. Why aren't the Soviets treated with an equal level of historical contempt? The reason: because the U.K., U.S., and France were their allies, and admitting that the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis would embarass their respective political myths. Yeah, they liberated the west from the Nazis, but did so by keeping millions of Slavic and Asiatic people under horrible oppression.
Sooner or later Germany will regain a sense of national pride. Maybe the dominance of U.S. power will reawaken this. Germany will be the dominant force in the EU after the Eastern countries have been integrated. Germans will form the core of a European military force. Germany, with the rest of Europe, will be a superpower, one that will be able to dethrone the U.S.'s dominant position.

	24-03-2003 10:09									#83
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Cause Americans are inlove with their cars, and the Germans make darn good ones.

The germans have a plan to introduce cars that get 200 km to the gallon, and thus they don't want US oil companies to control the supply and make oil 2cents to the barrel.

quote: This is a good point. It's easy to boycott French goods as they don't produce anything of any value. The Germans make quality products, so boycotts against them will be much less likely.

Obviously not a connoisseur of fine things.....

	24-03-2003 10:10									#84
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quote: Soviet atrocities were far worse than Nazi atrocities.

This is like saying the devil is worse than Satan.

	24-03-2003 10:12									#85
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quote: I think this U.S. situation might be a good thing. It could reawaken some German Nationalism

Yeah. Reawakening German nationalism would be great...

quote: Obviously not a connoisseur of fine things...

True enough. I'm a simple man...

	24-03-2003 10:14									#86
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Nah, GePap, the US has always been tightly integrated with Germany -- militarily, economically, and culturally. The same CANNOT be said about France. Doesn't even come close.

	24-03-2003 10:16									#87
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I second Wycoff the Germans will soon be much less pacifists than they are now, because they will indeed have some national pride. However, I doubt very highly the Germans will ever want to be an agressive military power again in the next few centuries.
The trauma that came from the 1870-1945 expansionism is so great, it'll leave scars in the Germans' collective memory for a very, very long time.

	24-03-2003 10:20									#88
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Expansionist, no. But I don't think that they will remain pacifists, especially if they break with the U.S. Shrinking German population combined with increase in immigration will probably swing Germany further right as well.

	24-03-2003 10:20									#89
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Did I say anything about integration somewhere? given the low percentage of French Immigrants this is certainly true.

See, the problem is that Americans and the French share just enough megalomanias to dislike each other for it, even if the way they express this dislike varties, as does the intensity.

	24-03-2003 10:22									#90
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Nah if America was more tightly integrated with France the way we were with Germany, there wouldn't be so much animousity.