22-03-2003 16:09									#1
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I was just chatting privately to Hot_Enamel from GoW, and he said that Vox have landed a settler escorted by three Immortals and a Spearman on the NE coast of our continent. He wants to know what our official response will be, and he says he is currently drafting some responses. It seems he would like to know if we would join GoW in telling Vox to put that settler back on the ship or else.

Discuss.

	22-03-2003 18:14									#2
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Message from GF:

quote: Vox has invaded our continent. Could GS have landed a force farther south? We need to discuss our reaction to this.

	22-03-2003 19:42									#3
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I don’t think we should do anything. If Vox settles a city in the NE, that’s one less city site for GoW and ND. On the other had, if GoW or ND manage to overrun it, then Vox took a risk and lost.

It’s just too far away for us to do anything about even if we want to. Let’s concentrate on settling our own part of the continent, and that will be the best way of preventing anyone else from doing so.

	22-03-2003 20:27									#4
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That territory is far too north for us to be worried about it. Tell them it's out of our sphere of interest (or something like that) and we can't help. We've got too much to hte South to be worrying about some city to the north.

	22-03-2003 21:06									#5
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Good, something for ND to be worried about. Takes the heat off of us for a while... Unless ND and Vox work against both GoW and Us...

E_T

	22-03-2003 21:56									#6
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Vox is probably itching for the opportunity to unleash their GA with those Immortals. I don't think we should help them to those ends. GoW's first reaction is natural, but cooler heads should prevail and the diplomats should take over.

I think we should attempt to form a coalition of GoW, ND, and ourselves and issue a public proclamation that any further cities (after this one which we will mercifully excuse) built on our continent by foreign powers is an act of war against all three of us.

[edit]: on a sidenote, we all have contact with each other now, perhaps it is time to set up the UN...

Last edited by ruby_maser on 22-03-2003 at 22:04

	22-03-2003 23:13									#7
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Bugger.

I agree that we should take no action. It is in a way to our advantage, as now the Neu Demogypticans and the Warmongers have a new threat to their north. Hopefully, they will allow the Voxians to become more of a pain for them...

On the flip side, maybe it will give us more time to build our troops to invade Neu Demogyptica when the Arabs declare war on China?

Fernand de History Guy Calamari
Squid Baron

	23-03-2003 00:35									#8
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My opinion : no reactions for now. We must continue our REX policy for a while ...

Our Madrid Expedition warriors will continue to survey the eastern coasts in case that a wessel was seen coming to our lands.

	23-03-2003 00:39									#9
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I wonder If GoW wasn't informed about that landing. It's curious that they had a Horseman in this area just when it occured.

	23-03-2003 00:40									#10
	Vox has landed on our continent Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ghengis Farb sent me an image of the Vox "invasion" force which consists of 6 spears, 2 immortals, 1 settler. They are on the north eastern tip of the continent.

I am currently in chat with Ghengis Farb & Darekill, both of whom have indicated they will declare war on Vox if they do not remove their units.

I have agreed to stand beside our northern neighbors, and join in the proclaimation that no foriegn nations shall have cities on our continent.

Our Non-Agg with Vox means we can't go to war, which is fine, but we must debate how involved we can get and how involved we want to get.

Key point: We DO NOT want to side against ND & GoW, as they would find this a perfect excuse to team up against us. It is in the best interest of Spain that we side WITH them against a common foe ... although I also want to minimize our foreign affairs damage as best as possible

Please discuss.

--Togas

	23-03-2003 01:56									#11
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Darekill of ND & GhengisFarb of GoW and our team have agreed to the following pact:

Treaty forming the Pact of 1075bc

The undersigned nations acknowledge that in order for us to live peacefully with each other, we must have sufficient room to grow our nations. The continent of Bob is large enough to allow peaceful coexistance between all three of our nations, however, it is not large enough to allow a forth foreign nation to build or posess settlements on it.

Therefore, to keep the peace on our contient and to discourage any foreign nation from settling here, we agree to the following terms:

Should any civilization that is not native to Bob create or capture settlements on this continent, the undersigned agree to unite, set aside our differences, and to jointly work to remove the foreign nation using any and all means available to us which include: Embargos, Pillaging, and Warfare.

The undersigned agree that this treaty supercedes all other treaties we have signed with each other and with other nations.

This Treaty creates a Pact between all undersigned nations, and all nations agree to serve, in good faith, the express interests of this pact.

Should any foriegn nation perform any actions with cause this Pact to be invoked, all members of the Pact shall meet and discuss how the Pact shall respond. All members shall abide by decisions made by the Pact.

All undersigned nations are bound to this treaty until giving TEN TURNS notice to the other parties of this treaty that the nation wishes to leave the Pact before actually leaving the Pact.

Darekill has signed this pact.
Ghenghis Farb agreed and has posted it to his forum for ratification.

I am going to send out this pact via PM later today to formalize the agreement.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 23-03-2003 at 02:05

	23-03-2003 02:04									#12
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We first met in chat an agreed to the general provisions of the pact above. I explained to GoW & ND that we had a Non-Agg pact with Vox and told them it expired at turn 120. They do not have non-aggs with Vox, and seemed to understand that Spain could not declare war ... but we would assist them as possible.

We invited Vox to join us, Betahound & Jon_Miller joined. There was a lot of argument and posturing by both sides, Vox claiming no one has the rights to decide who can settle where, GF & Darekill arguing that it was on our continent and they were going to settle there.

I explained to Vox that we all 3 agreed that, to keep the peace between us, there was only so much land available and to have to share it with another party would cause us to have less territory to divide.

I also explained to Vox that settling here would invoke the wrath of the two most dangerous teams in the game. They really don't want to do that, settling here would lead to death and destruction. I urged them to keep the peace.

In truth, only GoW & ND lose territory via Vox, but either one could decide to take some of our territory to make up for the loss. Spain has a lot of expansion room and I don't want our northern neighbors to have less ... or else they'll look south instead of looking East.

Furthermore, this event gives all of us a reason not to hate each other, and gives ND & GoW someone else to plot against. I love the fact that Vox seems to be volunteering to be their new enemy #1, all the while Spain can grow and settle our many luxuries, build workers, and rapidly develop our half of the continent.

We must side with ND & GoW on this issue ... and this pact will help should Lego or Vox or GS try to settle some of our unsettled land. We must also try to stay "neutral" with the foriegn civs ... beg them to be peaceful, as opposed to threatening them as GoW & ND are doing.

Keep a close eye on this issue in the chatrooms. This is going to get interesting.

--Togas

	23-03-2003 02:39									#13
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We need to make sure that Lego will join us in any embargo (as that is the only support that we can currently provide) that might be brought against Vox. As we don't have any real releations with GS, we need to make sure that, if the join in with Vox because of any reprecussions that this might make, that Lego will not also trade to GS.

This possible future conflict might be split by contenants and we need to make sure that Lego doesn't swing towards the Vox/GS group.

If we can completely Isolate Vox from any further help, then they might not try to build any more cities.

E_T

	23-03-2003 16:23									#14
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A further thought...

this pact is good for relations with ND. In a time we are hoping to reestablish that we are not a good target for aggression, especially from ND, we need to be seen to fit the friendly attitudes we are passing to them in the manner of our negotiations with them. Such a Pact ties us closer together, and this in a way is highly opportune, helping us and ND to get over some of the animosity we have felt for each other lately.

Ambassador for ND,
SrWIA.

	24-03-2003 19:22									#15
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When do we strike at ND???? Let them march north against the Vox dogs and take them from behind I say.

	25-03-2003 00:49									#16
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More information. Another messenger arrived to the palace:

quote: Last night Jon Miller and Betahound approached me to work out a deal where they could found a city in old Luxia. They stressed that GS had control of all luxuries and resources on their continent and that were desperate to keep themselves "out of (GS'S) pocket". It was their opinion that GoW was pretty much in ND and Roleplay's pocket, which to some extent is true, and offered to form an alliance and declare war with us on ND. I pointed our that GoW would face the full brunt of that attack and we were not interested at this time. They also discussed an alliance of Vox/Gow against GS and Roleplay. I then agreed this might be more fair and suggested they move their galley and settler to the southern tip of our continent and form their colony their (I suspected they would not realize how far that was and just how long a 3 move galley would take to get there). Anyway, after much playing with them we ended up saying that these discussions are best left for the future as GoW is in no position to fight anyone on Bob right now. It is a possiblity that they carried on these discussions with another team also so you may want to be a bit wary. I am not convinced that GS is refusing to support them as I can see no logical reason why they would think they could take on ND, GoW, and Roleplay by themselves. Course, they could be using Lux strategy.

And one of the officers of the Neu Demogyptican government has just made a short statement:

quote: Sent to Ghengis Farb, Donegeal and Hot Enamel. Btw. We are at war with Vox!

	25-03-2003 01:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GF I then agreed this might be more fair and suggested they move their galley and settler to the southern tip of our continent and form their colony their (I suspected they would not realize how far that was and just how long a 3 move galley would take to get there).

That is suspiciously stupid of them. I guarantee he knows that it will take less time for a Vox galley to get here than it will for our non-aggression pact to run its course. If this is a friendly gesture on his part towards us, he can kiss my @ss. If they take him seriously, we should consider ways to rush the harbor when Monarchy comes and get a galley to defend our coast.

And for that, GoW should be led to believe we will not support them with iron when the time comes if they do not support our interests now.

	25-03-2003 02:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Ghengis Farb sent me an image of the Vox "invasion" force which consists of 6 spears, 2 immortals, 1 settler. They are on the north eastern tip of the continent.

Please, ask Ghengis if this information is accurate, or if he is using instead a multi-unit mod. In fact, if this mod is implemented, the 6 spear are really only 1. The same for the 3 GoW horsemen = 1 horseman, and the 2 galleys = 1 galley.

Is Ghengis trying to play with us ?

	25-03-2003 03:06									#19
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looks like it. Why would vox have 3 horsemen together like that if they didn't know they were there. Maybe that's how vox hunts barbs :P

	25-03-2003 03:12									#20
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Astrologix, I think that in this image there is only 1 spear 2 inmortals and a settler.

	25-03-2003 04:48									#21
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First argument for the opinion that GoW is trying to play with us. I have once suggested to manipulate our little map of Val de los Toros: to paste a settler in the map so that it would seem as if we were going to settle there in a few turns. That would have given us a better ground to stand on in the tough negotiations with GoW about their warriors in Val de los Toros.
Why could GoW not use the same tactic? Togas decided that my idea was too risky in these negotiations and it could easily disturb the fragile balance. Ghengis has quite a different nature than Togas has: he's less concerned of diplomatic risks.

Second argument that GoW is trying to play with us: Why the hell would Vox put half of their army on this new continent? We are far stronger than Vox so the troops on the picture must be half their entire military.

Third argument: Why would Vox put such a large amount of troops on our continent if they come in peace?

Fourth argument: why would Vox put all those troops at once on our continent? If some army of GoW, ND ofr us would march to them, that would take several turns. In case they will be attacked, they have plenty of time to move troos fronm thir homeland to our continent: it's just one square.

Fifth argument: If Vox has such a large amount of units, why don't they attack GS for the luxuries they want to find on our continent, they are stroong enough to conquer some cities from GS if they have so many troops.

Aidun Cian the older

	25-03-2003 05:42									#22
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Senor Aidun, unless I am mistaken, I do believe that the Voxians have admitted that this is the force they have placed on our continent. I do believe that the Voxians may have been eating too little squid, which effected the chemicals in their brains, allowing them to make such an elementary mistake, for they have indeed brought this force, and it appears far too minimal to be an invasion force.

But once a colony is established, further colonies can only be expected. Then, the armies will come.

Fernand de History Guy Calamari
Squid Baron

	25-03-2003 06:33									#23
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Togas asked about this of Vox tonight and here was the responce:

quote: [19:37] [BetaHound> yes? [19:37] [Togas> In the image it shows 6 spears, 2 immortals, 1 settler, 2 galleys [19:37] [BetaHound> hah - [19:37] [Togas> we're somewhat doubtful there are that many units. [19:37] [BetaHound> yes - you would be right. We can reinforce them though. [19:38] [Togas> Are his numbers right? [19:40] [Dissident> doesn't sound right [19:40] [Dissident> Beta has played the last few saves. But I don't believe that is right. [19:41] [Togas> Listen, I'll be frank with you, but this needs to be kept completely confidential [19:41] [Dissident> I wonder how they could alter that though. with the editor maybe? [19:41] [Togas> Do we have your word that you will keep this discussion confidential? [19:41] [Dissident> yes you have our word. I think we have been very good about keeping secrets. [19:42] [Dissident> It helps having a smaller team in this regard [19:42] [BetaHound> yes - agreed [19:42] [Togas> Good. GF isn't the most credible of sources and he tends to overract and stir up mischeif. [19:42] [Togas> However, ND was very put off by the Vox invasion. [19:43] [Togas> if it was just GoW angry, we would have ignored the whole affair. [19:43] [Togas> But with both of them upset, we agreed to "agree" with them. [19:43] [Togas> Personally, I don't care if you settle all over the north. [19:43] [Togas> won't actually harm Spain, and it'll annoy GoW. [19:44] [BetaHound> [19:45] [Togas> I honestly wouldn't ADVISE you to do it. It would require you to heavily invest in units. [19:45] [Dissident> yes I wonder why New Demo is so upset as well. Not sure why [19:45] [Togas> if you could get ND to back off, appease them somehow, we'd also back off. [19:45] [BetaHound> yes - we may need to talk to them. [19:46] [BetaHound> Latest intelligence reports have 6 ND swordsmen heading our way. [19:46] [Togas> intel from who? [19:46] [E_T[chores]> who else [19:47] [Dissident> hehe [19:47] [Togas> We have an image of SIX vox spearmen. [19:47] [BetaHound> spies - they are every where - [19:47] [Togas> and you know if that's true or not. [19:47] [BetaHound> get your glasses fixed [19:47] [Togas> consider the source of your intel [19:47] [BetaHound> [19:47] [Togas> we got our "intel" from GoW [19:48] [BetaHound> concidence - isn't it. [19:49] [Togas> Vox and RP are very far apart. We have a Non-Agg treaty we plan to stick to it. [19:50] [Dissident> be back in a few. [19:50] [E_T[chores]> yes I wonder why New Demo is so upset as well. Not sure why [19:50] [BetaHound> yes - I wasn't inferring anything against RP there. [19:50] [E_T[chores]> perhaps they have the same intel source [19:50] [Togas> I understand

They were a bit surprised at that number that was stated, but neither comfirmed nor denigned anything, There are things that are implied...

Another interesting thing, Vox was also in talks with GoW at the same time. I did get a small amount of that.

quote: [19:36] [GhengisFarb[GoW]> They are unprepared because NO ONE CAN GET THERE ANYTIME SOON> [19:36] [BetaHound> Except us. [19:37] [GhengisFarb[GoW]> What's Roleplay doing in here?

I wonder what they were talking about??

	25-03-2003 06:47									#24
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Between that and the correspondence Genghis sent to Togas, the evidence is mounting that they are encouraging other teams to settle to our south. If Vox were to actually do so, I say to hell with any non-aggression pact and to hell with supplying Iron to GoW later.

	25-03-2003 07:33									#25
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GoW you duplicitous bast***s!

You gotta admire the idea though. I have to admit that the way those troops are arranged does not look normal - if there are 6 Spearmen in one square they don't appear as they do in the screenshot without some kind of alteration.

If true, this would explain why Vox is so upset about the talk of invasions going on the main forum

	25-03-2003 08:33									#26
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It's not if true

It is true

They are using one of the multi-character graphic mods

I think there is a recent news about it them in CFC

	25-03-2003 08:50									#27
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They don't appear to be six to me. I've seen these mysterious visions of many soldiers emerging from one...it is called a mirage. In Arabia, they were quite frequent, and were so life-like as to be believed by many...

However, what I do find interesting is the fact that the Voxians never answered us. Perhaps they were hiding something after all, eh?

Fernand de History Guy Calamari
Squid Baron

	25-03-2003 09:56									#28
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Vox has built a city on our continent.

I have sent the following message to Ghengis Farb & Darekill

quote: We discovered this new Vox city when we opened up the save ... as I'm sure each of you did. It was my understanding from our chat with Vox yesterday that they were going to only "take a look" around and then leave. They founded this city despite our warnings and our pleas to vacate. This is a clear invocation of our Pact. Please let me know what Spain can do to help remove this city from our continent.

We need to discuss how we should get involved in this affair. Frankly, I believe that GoW & ND having someone else to fight who will FIGHT BACK is an excellent position for us to be in. GoW & ND both lose units and production and will cease REX for a time. We will maintain our current level of preparedness and continue to REX, perhaps volunteering a few warrior-scouts to the war effor to act as observers for our allies.

Vox will likely be removed. No nation will gain from this war save Spain, who will have gained time and distance on our neighbors.

--Togas

	25-03-2003 11:33									#29
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First, I don't trust ND or Gow, but I never have seen any mention by the other teams that Vox landed 6 Spearmen. That image is using the multifigure mod from CFC which I also use. All foot units are represented by 6 figures and all mounted units are represented by 3 figures. I seriously doubt that they were trying to trick us with that image as they have the talent to do a much better job as shown with the "one island start" thread.

quote: [19:36] [GhengisFarb[GoW]> They are unprepared because NO ONE CAN GET THERE ANYTIME SOON> [19:36] [BetaHound> Except us. [19:37] [GhengisFarb[GoW]> What's Roleplay doing in here?

"No one can get there anytime soon (GoW)" This can apply to GS, Lego, or us.

"Except us. (Vox)" This can only apply to GS. Vox is not closer to us than ND or GoW. And they aren't anywhere near Lego.

At least by my assessment of the data. It might be possible that Vox has found a short cut to Lego, but if this was true why were they the last ones to get contact with them?

I think Vox and GoW have an alliance against GS, which brings up the question of whether the entire "invasion" was staged.

	25-03-2003 21:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Togas No nation will gain from this war save Spain, who will have gained time and distance on our neighbors.

We won’t gain either unless we take advantage of this and found more cities