23-03-2003 09:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Nothing unusual here, accidents kill and destroy more aircraft and crew than the enemy in most conflicts. (WW1, WW2 fer sure)

So all Saddam has to do, is give the allies some more choppers to win this thing ?

	23-03-2003 09:53									#32
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"Gun ships"? WTF?

In what perverse world are Sea Kings and Sea Knights "gun ships"

	23-03-2003 10:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Nothing unusual here, accidents kill and destroy more aircraft and crew than the enemy in most conflicts. (WW1, WW2 fer sure)

Source?

	23-03-2003 10:54									#34
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As Joseph said, the crashes are probably a result of the age of the helicopters in question, not a problem with helicopters in general.

	23-03-2003 11:04									#35
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These copters are mostly crashing due to problems with airborne sand getting into the engines and other moving parts, or eroding the rotor blades.

	23-03-2003 11:06									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Static23 These copters are mostly crashing due to problems with airborne sand getting into the engines and other moving parts, or eroding the rotor blades.

That's a bit of a stretch. 2/3 of the copter crashes occured right after takeoff, from a ship, over water...

	23-03-2003 11:15									#37
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Crash? It was a collision. Human error.

	23-03-2003 11:16									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That's a bit of a stretch. 2/3 of the copter crashes occured right after takeoff, from a ship, over water...

Airborne water particles then?

	23-03-2003 11:18									#39
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Sea Kings...

It won't surprise me if these things cause more non-urban casualties than the actual war.

The Sea King is a large, difficult aircraft prone to sudden, unexplained mechancial failures.

Also, flying any bulky transport helicopter in war conditions (or any conditions for Sea Kings) is probably the most difficult thing a human pilot has to do in this modern age. They wobble, they shift weight....it's damn hard.

I would feel more safe in a Chobham armoured M1A2 firing at a T-72, or at 20 000 in an F-15C blowing up AAA, then I would in a 30 year old Sea King on a routine supply mission.

The stats show which activity is more dangerous.

	23-03-2003 11:44									#40
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As Asher said, the Sea Kings aren't "gunships." The AH-64D Apache that made a "hard landing" is. A genuine helo gunship is one of the most pwerful conventional weapons around. In many Third World countries they make all the difference in jungle combat. IIRC, it was an Apache that fired the first shot of Gulf I.

Last edited by Carver on 23-03-2003 at 11:54

	23-03-2003 12:07									#41
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Russia's number one gunship at the moment: the Mil Mi-28

Attachment: mi-28.jpg
This has been downloaded 132 time(s).

	23-03-2003 12:11									#42
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Looks like an Apache rip-off...

	23-03-2003 12:21									#43
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 LOL

LOL at this - see you at the end of the war. You just earned a little time off - for the duration.

	23-03-2003 12:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Quick search on Google says that 17 helicopters were lost in Gulf War I but whether any of them were accidents I don't know...

Only one was shot down, an unarmed medevac bird from the 101 ABD. The others were lost to accidents of one kind or another.

	23-03-2003 14:16									#45
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Sea Kings have been around a while. Then again, they have a job to do, and they do it effectively. It's tried and tested technology- the fact that two were crashed into each other is scarcely an indictment on their reliability.

As far as reliability goes, they're a step up from Chinooks.

	23-03-2003 14:22									#46
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what did paiktis22 say? I missed it.

The problem is all those ships in the gulf I'm sure.

Each navy ship (with aircraft) has its own aircraft controllers. AC rating I believe. I'm not exactly sure how they coordinate it with so many ships. I'm guessing one ship takes on all aircraft coordination between ships. But that isn't going to include the British as they are another nation's military. You can see how mistakes are made because of it.

	23-03-2003 14:29									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Sea Kings have been around a while. Then again, they have a job to do, and they do it effectively. It's tried and tested technology- the fact that two were crashed into each other is scarcely an indictment on their reliability. As far as reliability goes, they're a step up from Chinooks.

One just crashed on take off into our Destroyer.

We want a refund!

	23-03-2003 16:56									#48
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The UK Sea Kings have been upgraded and refitted several times but have basically reached the end of their lives. They are being replaced by EH101's.

With the best will in the world helicopters just fall out of the sky sometimes. Various types are used for supply and crew runs from the UK to the oil rigs in the N Sea and every now and then one goes splash. Under combat conditions with pressure to keep them flying rather than in the hangar undergoing maintenance and with crews flying repeated missions mistakes and accidents will happen.

	23-03-2003 18:17									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Asher "Gun ships"? WTF? In what perverse world are Sea Kings and Sea Knights "gun ships"

Artistic licence. It sounded better in the title of the thread than "How crap are helicopters?".

	23-03-2003 18:23									#50
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Carver: I thought that the Ka-52(?) is better.

	23-03-2003 20:19									#51
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"The Dangers Of Wartime Flying" (BBC News Online Article)

	23-03-2003 20:45									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Source?

The library,

Read any airforce history they lose more men and planes
to weather, mechanical failure and training accidents than enemy action.

The last book i read which spelled this out clearly was
"Mohawks over Burma"

	23-03-2003 22:26									#53
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But... that's... just not right!!!

I mean whenever I boot up Alpha Centauri and load up on Chaos Nerve Gas Choppers, they always go right through the enemy like cabbage soup through a grandmother.

Maybe Saddam sent Probe Teams into London to alter the UK's version of the alphax.txt file to make their helicopters crap.

	23-03-2003 22:31									#54
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It's pretty obvious, they just failed to get back to base by the end of the turn which dealt the squadron 30% damage.

	24-03-2003 00:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what did paiktis22 say? I missed it. The problem is all those ships in the gulf I'm sure.

If you read it, it sound like he was happy that the two British Chopper when down with lost of life.

	24-03-2003 00:53									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Sea Kings have been around a while. Then again, they have a job to do, and they do it effectively. It's tried and tested technology- the fact that two were crashed into each other is scarcely an indictment on their reliability. As far as reliability goes, they're a step up from Chinooks.

The Chinooks have had their problems for sure, but the Sea King has been around since 1959. Even if you build one today, you are using 1950s technology. Yes they need to be replace with newer designs.

	24-03-2003 02:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Carver: I thought that the Ka-52(?) is better.

Technologically, I think it is, but no one has ordered the Ka-50/52 yet. The Mi-28 has at least been purchased in small numbers by the Russian AF; I think they were using two of them in Chechnya.

	24-03-2003 19:54									#58
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Well, if you want to know about helos, I am probably the guy to ask. Seeing as I work on them. So, here is a quick breakdown on all the helos in action:

46/47: The Chinooks and Sea Knights. Also known as flying bannanna and flying coffin. Old helos with dual main rotors, used for cargo, VOD and troop insertion

3 Sea King- Older helo, single rotor. Primary uses are cargo, VOD and SAR.

60 - Main helo, used for troop insertions, transport, VOD

53 - Heavy lift helo, most powerful in the world. Can carry up to 55 troops with machine guns on ramp and doors. Also used for VOD and cargo.

64 - Apache attack helicopter

58 - Kiowa scout helicopter.

Any questions?

	24-03-2003 20:02									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Midshipman 46/47: The Chinooks (...). Also known as flying bannanna (...)

Btw, the Brits will also use Lynx and Puma helis.

	24-03-2003 20:21									#60
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Don't the US marines still use Cobras?