24-03-2003 20:24									#61
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Yes, they do, some were shown over Umm Qasr recently

	24-03-2003 20:31									#62
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Btw, has someone an idea why the attack near Karbala (were one Apache was lost) was carried out by attack helis, and not by "normal" airpower (jets)?

I mean - didn´t they know the AA capacity in that area, or did they underestimate it (and were finally suprised by the real strength)? I thought in such cases they would try to soften up those positions by airstrikes, and that they would try to destroy AA weapons at first.

Here´s a CNN report about that
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...tack/index.html

	24-03-2003 20:34									#63
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Apparently it was shot down by a farmer. With a rifle.

Attachment: farmerapache.jpg
This has been downloaded 42 time(s).

	24-03-2003 20:34									#64
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I read that the Apache in question was "shot down by farmers"...

	24-03-2003 20:37									#65
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It seems strange as the Apache doesn't show much damage. No evidence of a missile or even that it got caught in a burst of automatic cannon fire. They are supposed to be largely resistant to 23mm cannon fire (from Soviet ZSU-23 AAA) so the idea that an Iraqi farmer shot one down with a rifle is pretty ludicrous.

Are there any shots of the tail rotor? Damage to that area seems the most likely cause of the crew having to put down.

	24-03-2003 20:39									#66
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Lucky shot, obviously.

	24-03-2003 20:40									#67
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That, or it wasn't actually brought down by a farmer at all. Good propoganda for the Iraqi government to say that it was... the 'copter does look pretty much undamaged on the TV pictures I've seen.

Technical fault perhaps?

	24-03-2003 20:45									#68
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Technical fault perhaps?

Infinitely more likely.

	24-03-2003 20:46									#69
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Well, yes I read the farmer story too, but I find it hard to believe. I also think it is strange that the heli on TV looked so good - even all the missiles were under the little wings...

Maybe it is possible to down it with a lucky shot, I don´t know, but it is still strange...

	24-03-2003 20:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat LOL at this - see you at the end of the war. You just earned a little time off - for the duration.

gj

On topic - IIRC there were supposed to be serious adverse conditions when the helicopters crashed into each other including high winds and a nasty sandstorm?

	24-03-2003 20:59									#71
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As has been mentioned the Sea King is being replaced by the Merlin (EH101), another of those great cost and time overrun defence projects of the 90s...not sure how far they've got with the replacement program, but obviously not far enough (since I think they should all have been replaced some 3 years ago).

	24-03-2003 21:20									#72
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The UK ordered about 60 Merlins and Westland have sold a few elsewhere. However Westland are now warning about low order books and laying off workers. The unions are asking for more MoD orders. (I can't remember the link but search the BBC website for helicopters and the story will come up)

	24-03-2003 21:24									#73
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The trade unionists are opposed to war and conflict... unless their members' jobs are at risk. Hypocrites.

	24-03-2003 21:37									#74
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Amicus, the main union representing the lot at the plant, were one of the three unions to block a "No war" vote at last years TUC thingamajig. They supported a war with UN backing.

At least get your facts straight...

	24-03-2003 21:39									#75
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I never let the facts get in the way of a good rant at trade unionists...

Besides, saying you support "a war with UN backing" when one country has made it clear that they will block any resolution regardless is absolutely meaningless.

	24-03-2003 21:44									#76
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Considering the vote I'm talking about was back in November (ish) last year, France's veto had little to do with it.

Put simply...a lot of unionists in the manufacturing industry work in defence...therefore the unions are not anti-war, since that would be rather detrimental to their members.

	24-03-2003 22:47									#77
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quote: The Chinooks and Sea Knights. Also known as flying bannanna and flying coffin. Old helos with dual main rotors, used for cargo, VOD and troop insertion

Actually, the "flying bannana" is, by obvious reasons, the H-21, an old helicopter of the vietnam war era:

	24-03-2003 22:55									#78
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Someone answer this.

	24-03-2003 23:20									#79
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It's the wrong colour!