24-03-2003 04:31									#1
	Operation Immortal Beloved Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I am posting a draft plan here for the invasion of GS. Feel free to kick it around and make amendments.

Diplomacy

With GS

We need to find out the timing on the tech trade. This will give us some idea of how much time we have. If it happens soon, we have to scramble. And 8-10 turn window would be nice.

We need to tell them we are researching Monarchy. If they think we are researching nothing, they will expect cash.

Can you bug them again about the 20 gold Jon. We could use it.

Remind them about the Lux treasury.

We also need to wait until they have converted to the republic. This will prevent them from pop rushing troops. I suspect they will actually convert back to Despotism when they see what is up, as they will only have one turn of anarchy being religious. Damn. Would have been nice to catch them in four turns of anarchy. As it is , they will endure two if they convert there and then back again.

With RP and Lego

Relations as normal.

With GoW and maybe NeuD

We reach an agreement to provide to them:

1. a city on Bob, after the attack on GS.
2. our free tech when we get it
3. they can sell our free tech to others; we will not
4. assistance in invading RP
5. 40 gold in 25 turns

They provide:

1. 3 galleys and 6 units each for the invasion of GS
2. 120 gold now

We agree to publicly denounce each other - in fact we should fill the forums with descriptions of conflict around Wittlich West - and a battle of attrition with losses on all sides. Vox would appear to be weakening - but holding our own. At this point we could even ask GS for a loan of gold for more Immortal conversions to pour into the hell-hole of war that Wittlich West has become.

The question here is whether NeuD would buy into the plan. I suspect they would.

We would also have to ensure there are units milling around up there in case a galley from GS or Lego floats by.

Technology

As above, we research nothing now - gold accumulation is 13 per turn - rising next turn with the growth of Wittlich East. We currently have 125 gold.

Military Production

The build up plan is in the move thread. We should have 5 spearmen, and 10-14 Immortals. If we reach agreement with the Bobians, we can also use the two Immortals there, and convert Wittlich West to producing another warrior. The actual production will become more evident over the next few turns. I will kep the tally updated so we know what we are working with.

Military Plan

Troop build up in Elipolis - or better yet - I tile south of it on the turn we are set to go. First Immortal takes out the GS warrior. Others are then two turns to Dissidentville.

Four turns after that - marching down the spine of the mountains - puts us on the mountain overlooking what I assume is their new city. We will also have a better view of the lay of the land. And some idea at what is comng at us. The plan will then likely see us taking that city out, and lining up the next one.

We should also send our galley with two units down the east shore. Land them on a hill or a mountain where they can cut a road or cause chaos. I presume GoW and NeuD will come down the west coast. Any thoughts on what timing works best? Ghengis saw us moving in first - drawing off the defenders - then they would move in. Simultaneous would work well as well.

Also - what kind of defence force do we leave around Dissidentville. They can get at it with chariots now, but if we had two immortals in the jungle in the shute leading up to it, we could cut them up as they approached. On the other hand - given the gamble this represents - we may not want to weaken the main attack force. A spearman in Dissidentville, maybe two , and there will be reinforcemets in the form of the current southern warriors who will beetle up north for conversion.

So - after we get to the first city - the situation will no doubt become 'fluid', as they say, and we will need to react to the situation.

	24-03-2003 04:34									#2
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And we need some serious and very private discussions with Gow, and possible NeuD.

	24-03-2003 04:47									#3
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quote: We reach an agreement to provide to them: 1. a city on Bob, after the attack on GS. 2. our free tech when we get it 3. they can sell our free tech to others; we will not 4. assistance in invading RP 5. 40 gold in 25 turns

Do we have to include #3?
I would think that it would be enough for then receiving it, let alone them having the ability to trade it and us not being able to.

	24-03-2003 04:51									#4
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And as far as number 1 goes - a city on Bob after the attack on GS - I wonder if we can possibly place a second city on Bob (where they can't see it) so that we can choose which city is the less productive for the "city give-a-way."

	24-03-2003 04:58									#5
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can I be an anti-war protestor

	24-03-2003 05:03									#6
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As long as you don't block traffic! (San Francisco)

	24-03-2003 05:16									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Do we have to include #3? I would think that it would be enough for then receiving it, let alone them having the ability to trade it and us not being able to.

Well - it is in fact costing them 80 gold. That is what I was trying to compensate for. That is still cheap. If they can sell it and make some money - well I'm sure they would see some value in it. I am not hung up on this issue. Just want to make sure that it is an offer they can't refuse.

	24-03-2003 05:22									#8
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And jon - you need to stay in contact with GS. If they sense that we are getting quiet and withdrawn, they may think something is up.

Bare our soul a little bit. We want to settle on Bob. It is tough going diplomatically. We think we may able to make a go of it - and are willing to fight to defend our rights - that kind of thing.

Gs will probaly laugh at us behind our backs for our noble foolishness. And they will wish us the best of luck. Nathan will advise us against such folly. But I'm sure they won't mind three of the other civs going to war.

	24-03-2003 07:48									#9
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quote: Do we have to include #3? I would think that it would be enough for then receiving it, let alone them having the ability to trade it and us not being able to.

This should help them give us more gold up front rather than us having to wait to sell the tech to someone else.

	24-03-2003 07:50									#10
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quote: We need to find out the timing on the tech trade. This will give us some idea of how much time we have. If it happens soon, we have to scramble. And 8-10 turn window would be nice.

We might have 8 turns. I am not so sure about 10. GS has been researching Republic for a while. I remember a communication from Lego about being around 10 turns from Currency. They may be only 5 away now. We may see C&C in a few turns and Republic later, or GS may hold on to everything. Maybe we can suggest that GS hold on to everything so they can send it to us at once and it will look to other civs like we make a big trade with our free tech. We can tell them the delay of a few turns will not matter since we are a few turns away from completing Monarchy. Once we get everything, if we still need another turn we can always put up Monotheism unaccepted. Oh stupid us, we did it again.

quote: We also need to wait until they have converted to the republic. This will prevent them from pop rushing troops. I suspect they will actually convert back to Despotism when they see what is up, as they will only have one turn of anarchy being religious.

It is possible they also have some cash and may rush a few before switching back.

quote: With GoW and maybe NeuD We reach an agreement to provide to them: 1. a city on Bob, after the attack on GS. 2. our free tech when we get it 3. they can sell our free tech to others; we will not 4. assistance in invading RP 5. 40 gold in 25 turns They provide: 1. 3 galleys and 6 units each for the invasion of GS 2. 120 gold now

Is that 120 gold from each? Is our 40 gold to each? We should get more. I see the invasion assistance as a trade off with the city on Bob a bribe to make the deal. The galleys cost them nothing in the long run because I doubt they will lose them. They may lose their 6 units but we will give that back when we invade RP.

They end up getting our tech for free. Only 120 gold and we give some back later. They will be able to easily make up the difference by selling our 300+ beaker tech to Lego and RP. I think we need to get more gold from them. I would try for 200 each and tell them they will get some of that back when they sell the tech. They can negotiate us down but I would like to end up with at least 150 from each with nothing back later. Even if all the other civs had the tech it would cost them over 150 beakers to research it. Remember that Lux said they paid a lot in a big tech deal when they discovered GoW and with GoW being shifty about researching Construction I think they are stockpiling gold. Our success will depend on getting enough gold to upgrade Immortals.

I am also not sure if they can provide three galleys in time.

We also need to get them to agree not to claim any land on Estonia. If they conquer a city they must give it to us.

quote: Troop build up in Elipolis - or better yet - I tile south of it on the turn we are set to go. First Immortal takes out the GS warrior. Others are then two turns to Dissidentville.

Put them on the grassland E of Elipolis. The worker can reconnect the road quicker, and then he can mine it. The Immortals will need to be on the road to move out and strike their Warrior in one turn.

We need to have a Spearman ready with the Immortals so he can go to the colony and relieve the Warrior there. The Warriors south of Dissidentville should pull back on the same turn we take out the Warrior in the north. They can be upgraded to Immortals (provided we still have cash and we need a barracks in Dissident ville) and will ready shortly after the main force passes through. These units can be a protection force in case GS tries to send those Warriors or other units north to pillage our road.

quote: We should also send our galley with two units down the east shore. Land them on a hill or a mountain where they can cut a road or cause chaos.

We need to take out the Warrior on the east coast so they don't see the galley coming. I would like to have two galleys if we can swing it. Maybe include on spearman if we can not afford four Immortals there. One of the Immortals from the main force will have to be diverted to take out the Warrior, other wise if an Immortal pops up there they will know it came from a galley.

quote: I presume GoW and NeuD will come down the west coast. Any thoughts on what timing works best? Ghengis saw us moving in first - drawing off the defenders - then they would move in. Simultaneous would work well as well.

If GS sends their units towards us on the mountains then GoW and ND will be free to land and cause trouble. GS would either have to ignore them or waste turns moving some units back. I wouldn't want them to wait too long though. It will take us about eight turns from the time we take out the first GS Warrior until we capture the first GS city. GS will be preparing for us all that time. GS may try to get us to do some fighting in the dessert south of Dissidentville. I suspect we will see fortified Spearmen on the mountains, which will make a tough fight for an Immortal. They will try to get us to move onto the flats. You know that as soon as we take out their Warrior GS will be thinking a bunch or Immortals are on their way and plan accordingly.

My concerns are the number of turns GS will have to prepare for war after we take out their northern Warrior and the amount of time it will take for GoW and ND to send help. GoW and ND started on the other side of Bob and they are expanding east. We have no indication that they have any coastal cities on our side of Bob. Since they have room on the continent to expand they may not even have galleys yet. Even if they do they may all be on the other side of Bob. It may take them a while to get around Bob and down the coast of Estonia.

It is too bad we don't have four galleys with a couple nearby from ND or GoW. I could see them sending a couple of galleys containing units past the GS Warrior with two of our galleys following (the other two would be for the east coast force). We could tell GS that we are chasing the GoW galleys. Yes, they may prepare to defend against GoW but I think they would prepare less against a force from two galleys than a full Immortal invasion coming down the mountains. The galleys will continue down the west until we see a GS border, then GoW will land on some nearby hills or mountains with our force landing next to them. Hopefully it will look like we are there to take out the GoW units. GS should direct their forces against GoW. They may not do anything to our Immortals. At this time GoW attacks GS, we clean up, and the rest of the invasion force by Elipolis does its thing. The risk is that GS will see right through this and will take apart our split up forces. The benefit is we get a better jump on GS, possibly claiim a city, and disrupt their forces before they have a chance to fully prepare for an Immortal invasion. The GoW and Vox forces could help protect each other (one attacks while the other pulls back to heal).

I don't want to spend the resources to build a bunch of galleys. We need the Immortals. Maybe just one more galley so we have two going down the east coast.

Another idea is similar. Have GoW or ND send some galleys down the west coast past the GS Warrior. We tell GS we are sending four Immortals down the road to protect Dissidentville. We could even tell them it was the former Luxians in GoW that told them about Dissidentville. The rest of the Immortals wait by Elipolis as planned. The Immortals in Dissidentville will be a turn or two ahead of the rest of the force. They might be able to take out the GS Warrior by Dissidentville (unless they run him back to their cities) and as the Immortals move down the mountain they will give us a look a little sooner so we can make more plans before the rest of the force arrives. They may also be able to claim the mountains before GS has a chance to create units and get them fortified. Again, the risk is that GS sees right through this and we end up giving them one or two additional turns to prepare. Also GS will see the GoW/ND force coming and once we take out their Warrior they will know what is happening and go all out in war preparations (could they even prepare more than they would for a full Immortal force on the way?). A disadvantage is that GS will see the GoW/ND force coming so it will not be as much of a surprise. The benefit is that we may be able to get a jump on claiming the mountains (I would hate to have to fight our way down them as it may cost us too many units). Also, GS will see the GoW/ND galleys and may keep some of their forces back to wait for them.

Those were some ideas I was kicking around. I am not sure that either of them provides enough of a benefit over Beta's plan. Both of my ideas depend on GoW and ND having galleys near Estonia. I think it will take them a while to be ready and we can not wait. Once they land a force of 12 units will cause considerable trouble for GS. Until then, GS will be focusing on us.

	24-03-2003 08:38									#11
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Yowzer - great ideas, Harry! Yes - if only we had some more galleys. I don't think it is worth trying to build more. I wiuld rather spend the effort on Immortals.

I agree with you about fighting our way down the mountain chain. It would be nice to have one immortal down there to take out the warrior at Dissdentville - and then be able to spread spearmen out on the mountains ahead of the Immortal army. Would save them having to fight their way there. Hey - maybe an archer would work. We could have and archer and three spearmen at Dissdentville. We can work on this.

The ideal would be to somehow road the jungle tile south of Dissidentville - cutting one more turn off the trek. But I can't figure a way to do this without raising suspicion. I think we have to accept the number of turns to get there. This would be waaaay easier without the observer. Oh - well. We work with what we have.

I think the first city will be OK. Then the problem is getting caught on the plains by a mass of chariots. I think we actually take over the first city - and don't raze it. Then the chariots cannot use roads in our territory - where we can. It will also give us a forward base - and hopefully - a long-term city.

I was wondering if we could do this with 4 galleys total from GoW and NeuD. I suspect we could. I would rather have 4 galleys in 8-10 turns rather than 6 in 20.

I also concur with the simultaneous withdrawl of our southern warriors. They can be upgrade, and we do not want to lose them needlessly. They will represent a nice strategic reserve of 3 Immortals.

I am not opposed to your modifications to the tech trade- the more money - the better. If you think we could swing the deal as you propose - great. That was my thinking behind letting them sell the tech - they will pay more for it now when we need it.

We have 125 gold now. Plus 13 for the next 8 turns, totals 230. 300 from Gow and NeuD would make 530. That is 13 upgrades we could fund.

	24-03-2003 09:05									#12
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And I gather folks are OK with the name of the Operation? Came to me an a moment of inspiration.

For those of you who may be unfamiliar with the reference - it was the title of the movie a few years back regarding Beethoven's life.

	24-03-2003 12:02									#13
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Spearmen from Dissidentville could be used to claim the mountains and provide protection to the Immortals from their attacks. Archers will not do much in the mountains. Even against a warrior it is a 1-1 attack, and worse if the warrior is fortified.

I would like to keep all the cities that we can. It can serve as a place to heal units. When the resisters are gone we can pop-rush some spearmen to help protect the Immortals. We can worry about growing the city back after the war is over.

	24-03-2003 14:02									#14
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I haven't read everything, but I wish we had more galley's.

Our land force will be seen by their warriors. Anyone have any ideas how to get around that?

	24-03-2003 21:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I haven't read everything, but I wish we had more galley's. Our land force will be seen by their warriors. Anyone have any ideas how to get around that?

Diss - read above. It ain't perfect - but it is the best we can do. I don't think galleys are an option. Too expensive.

Harry - I agree with the spearman approach out of Dissidentville. My idea for the arche was for him to take out the warrior south of Dissidentville on the first move, to prevent him from blocking the spearmen moving onto the mountains.

Another idea I had, and this goes along with the Bobian conflict ruse. The Bobian war rages on - a GoW gallet gets through and lands two units north of the mountain where the northern-most GS warrior is. Actually, they just land one. GoW moves before us and us before GS. So we say they landed, and that we killed off one of their units. GS will see one GoW unit, and one Immortal standing next to it. We tell GS not to worry - we will take the other GoW unit out next turn. On our turn instead, we take out the GS warrior. The GoW unit reboards and heads south.

We exclaim - OMG! - GoW took out out the GS warrior. Don't worry GS, we will get payback for you.

Our troops head south.

Any flaws in this plan?

	24-03-2003 23:41									#16
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quote: We exclaim - OMG! - GoW took out out the GS warrior. Don't worry GS, we will get payback for you.

And how will you explain the war status between Vox and GS?

	25-03-2003 01:54									#17
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I don't understand your question Eli. At this point - I am thinking solely of a way of taking out the northern observer - and being able to buy say 2 or 3 more turns until they see the Immortals climbing into the mountains and realizing what is up.

We would not be at war with GS, or even hinted at war. If that northern observer wasn't there, this could work better. We could be in the mountains and on our way before they got wind of it.

	25-03-2003 02:26									#18
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quote: On our turn instead, we take out the GS warrior. The GoW unit reboards and heads south.

I hope you mean GoW takes out the GS warrior, not us.

GS would be wondering why GoW attacked them and realize that something isn't write. Maybe in the public smokescreen GoW can start placing hints that they think we are being supported by GS. That would at least give them an excuse for attacking the GS warrior.

We would have to move an Immortal south of Elipolis (I would do just one) and put him on the grassland 2 SE. Close enough for the GS to see him and think we are there to take out the GoW landing while making it look like that is all the farther he could move that turn. GoW takes out the GS warrior to take over the high ground for defensive benefits against our Immortal. They could then boast and dare us to come and get them. This could even be done early with the GoW galley heading back to Bob to pick up more units for the disruption force. The GoW unit then follows behind our Immortal stack down to GS territory. It would have to stay a couple tiles back so GS does not see it.

Without their lookout, GS will not see any galleys coming down the west coast unless they move something else into position farther south.

Taking out the GS warrior would get their attention. The question is, would they think much of it. Would they make a few preparations or would they go all out for military? Whether it is us or GoW, with about 8 turns between the loss of their Warrior and our Immortals showing up next to their city, that is a lot of time to produce spearmen to put in the mountains. We either have to shorten that time, or put more of a force into hitting them someplace else where they are not expecting it. It would be nice if we had the Great Litehouse. We could move down the east coast out of site of their warriors.

	25-03-2003 02:33									#19
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agreed. They need a reason to attack GS.

	25-03-2003 03:09									#20
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I was suggesting we take out their warrior. With the way ptw works, they would only see that their warrior is gone - not what happened to him. We would tell themm it was GS - not us.

	25-03-2003 03:13									#21
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But when they check the political advisor screen, it will show Vox at war with GS - not Gow at war with GS....no matter what we tell them.

	25-03-2003 03:14									#22
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I hope everyone understands that this war will most certainly start our Golden age. I have heard no one even mention this. A golden age is a very good thing to be in when you are at war. every tile that has a shield produces another one. Am I correct in this? I think it is something like that. It will really help our production.
Perhase GOW would even be willing to allow one of our immortals kill a warrior (as long as we pay for it) to help our production before we go after GS.

	25-03-2003 03:15									#23
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They (GS) will probably also get the "Vox has declared war" pop-up screen on the beginning of their next turn....They don't have to "witness" the death of their warrior inorder to figure out who killled him.

	25-03-2003 03:18									#24
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Yes, as soon as one of our Immortals wins a battle, it will trigger our golden age.

I've also noticed that golden ages triggered by the victory of a UU lasts longer than a golden age triggered by a wonder. I don't know how much longer, but it seems to last longer when this happends. (Though I believe the manual states 20 turns either way).

	25-03-2003 03:18									#25
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We would have GOW kill the warrior. that is what I assumed was implied

	25-03-2003 03:21									#26
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Well, in that case - That makes sense.

	25-03-2003 03:33									#27
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Than going to war now would be a better than waiting until our Immortals are outdated.
WE NEED to get working on putting this thing together. ND has declared war on us and I don't think they know our true intentions are not on BOB.

	25-03-2003 06:44									#28
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Immortals are just as good as Medival Infantry, but cheaper. They lose their advantage but they will not go out of date for a while yet.

I wonder if we can change this whole thing around. I wonder how friendly GoW is with ND. Can we get GoW to agree to a war with ND and then we move right on down over RP? We take a northeast part of Bob and they get the rest. It still eliminates RP as GoW wants and we take out two of the bigger powers (but maybe not the biggest obstacles to future wining).

	25-03-2003 06:45									#29
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If we take out the warrior GS will know it. If GoW takes it out without an excuse GS will know something is fishy.

	25-03-2003 07:21									#30
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What if GoW, says they want to take over the whole of Estonia and is taking a two pronged attack on Estonia, Us and GS, this would be their grand reason d'etat.