30-03-2003 01:33									#271
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then respond to my post script about Species 8472.

Species 8472 isn't in the Milky Way galaxy, high speed.

	30-03-2003 01:35									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Species 8472 isn't in the Milky Way galaxy, high speed.

Since you seemed to have missed it.

PS One Fed ship stopped an invasion by the Vong equivilant, Species 8472. How hard do you think it would be for the entire Federation to take on the Empire.

	30-03-2003 01:43									#273
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Since you seemed to have missed it. PS One Fed ship stopped an invasion by the Vong equivilant, Species 8472. How hard do you think it would be for the entire Federation to take on the Empire.

Vong equlivant my fat white Navy ass. We're talking about a race that, for some inexplicable reason uses organic ships, from another dimension? How hard do you suppose would it be to modify nanites to go after S8472-exclusive genes? The New Republic had no problem with the Vong, and there was only ONE chromesome difference then.

I'm sure those nanites sure would be useful in breaking through Imperial shielding. Oh wait, no they wouldn't.

	30-03-2003 01:58									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar The New Republic had no problem with the Vong, and there was only ONE chromesome difference then.

Yes, that must be the reason they lost control of the Coruscant system and the Jedi are on the run for thier very lives.

quote: for some inexplicable reason uses organic ships

Much like the Vong.

	30-03-2003 02:04									#275
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, that must be the reason they lost control of the Coruscant system and the Jedi are on the run for thier very lives. quote: for some inexplicable reason uses organic ships Much like the Vong.

Haven't you read Destiny's Way? That was when they devolped the bioweapon (which they then wussied out on using for fear of genocide.) and Akbar came out of retirement to set a trap which destroyed 5 Vong fleet groups, including killing the Warmaster.

Remnant begins with the Vong attacking the Imperials as a reatliatory action for providing the Galactic Alliance (the NR is no more) with the map of the Deep Core nessecary for the trap. Bastion falls, but Pelleon kicks the sh*t out of them at Yaga Minor, then launches an attack on Vong holdings in the outer rim.

Incidently, the Bothans have declared that "The highest state of war" exists between the Bothan people and the Vong, which can only win with the Vong being wiped out.

	30-03-2003 02:07									#276
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I guess Star Wars must be superior. After all... their ships make noise when they fly around in a vacuum. By blatantly ignoring the fact that sound does not exist in a vacuum, Star Wars has proven it's superiority .

BTW, I realize Star Trek is guilty of this also, but not to anywhere near the same degree as Star Wars.

	30-03-2003 02:10									#277
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quote: Haven't you read Destiny's Way?

I haven't read anything past Vector Prime.

	30-03-2003 02:27									#278
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BTW: I thought that I would clear up the misconception that the Federation is pinko.

From "The Devil In The Dark":

Vanderburg : "Just wanted to tell you the eggs have started to hatch, Captain. First thing the little devils do is start to tunnel! We've already hit huge new pergium deposit. I'm afraid to tell you how much gold and platinum and rare earths we've uncovered."

Kirk : "I'm delighted to hear that chief. Once mother Horta tells her children what to look for, you people are going to be embarrassingly rich!"

Now to put the nail in the coffin, "Mudd's Women":

Mudd : "Oh, you beautiful galaxy! Oh that heavenly universe! Well girls, lithium miners! Don't you understand? Lonely, isolated overworked, rich lithium miners! Do you still want husbands? Hmm? Evie, you were going to be satisfied with a ship's captain? I'll get you a man who can buy you a whole planet!"

	30-03-2003 02:31									#279
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike I guess Star Wars must be superior. After all... their ships make noise when they fly around in a vacuum. By blatantly ignoring the fact that sound does not exist in a vacuum, Star Wars has proven it's superiority . BTW, I realize Star Trek is guilty of this also, but not to anywhere near the same degree as Star Wars.

Every, and I repeat every episode of ST I've seen wherein space combat was featured had lots of sound. Loud explosions, phaser fire, etc. And as someone pointed out, one of the original series's plot points involved the Enterprise getting hit by a sonic wave in space. So don't give me this crap that SW is somehow more guilty!

	30-03-2003 02:35									#280
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So...You saying you want the TOS Federation to be the ones to fight the Empire?

	30-03-2003 02:37									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar So...You saying you want the TOS Federation to be the ones to fight the Empire?

I'm saying the Feds aren't a bunch of pinkos. Drawing another conclusion is reaching on your part.

	30-03-2003 02:49									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow I don't see anything that indicates the Core Worlds are near the core of the galaxy.

Gee, the fact that they are referred to as "Core Worlds" would seem to indicate as such. There's nothing that refutes such a notion in any SW source, so saying this is just assumption.

Besides, plenty of official sources explicitly say say the Core worlds are indeed in the core. You can see the attached map, from Star Wars: Behind the Magic book, which is from the movie makers (so closer to canon than officila sources).

quote: In fact, the history of the Sith implies that the Empire was confined to one side of the galaxy, with the Sith homeworld established opposite the galactic core by I-forget-who. A whole empire of previously unknown races was conquered by the Sith. A Sith battle fleet that invaded the Corelian side, generations later, was miraculously wiped out by I-forget-what-improbable-plot-device. The other side of the galaxy was never throughly explored by the Empire, much less controlled.

Nothing there contradicts the Empire having control over territory that spans the entire galaxy. Official sources repeatedly say that only a quarter of the galaxy is unexplored, and it doesn't indicate that is continguous unexplored space, as opposed to isolated unexplored systems. It is most likely the systems forming the veyr outer-most ring of the galaxy.

quote: Yes, ST series have plenty of oddities but Roddenberry never claimed to establish a "canon." As ridiculous as Q or the shapeshifters may be they are used to explore some curious ideas. I can't say that Ewoks do the same.

Yeah, but how about them tribbles?

quote: Endor was originally supposed to be a Wookie colony, hence the believability that they might overcome a battallion of Stormtroopers despite lack of energy weapons. Anakin was supposed to be a teenager, hence the assertion that he was too old to safely train (and the like implications in ESB regarding Luke). Both of these were dumbed down during production to appeal to preadolescent audiences.

Whatever changes were made prior to filming doesn't effect what is canon, and certainly doesn't contradict anything. What makes into the films is canon, simple as that. I'm sure ST writers have changed their minds from orginal plots often--so what?

As for Luke's being too old to train--clearly that was not the case, as he did train and became an incredibly powerful Jedi. Yoda's saying this was likely BS--he was making excuses for not wanting to train another Skywalker and maybe have unleash another Vader on the galaxy.

I admit that the two new films don't interest me and I've only seen each once, but didn't the Jedi council express reservations about training Anakin because he was so young?

	30-03-2003 02:50									#283
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Oops, forgot the map!

Attachment: map.jpg
This has been downloaded 56 time(s).

	30-03-2003 02:51									#284
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm saying the Feds aren't a bunch of pinkos. Drawing another conclusion is reaching on your part.

They are in the 24st century.

	30-03-2003 02:58									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar They are in the 24st century.

No they aren't.

"The Gift":

Janeway : "Ah! Tuvok's meditation lamp! I was with him when he got it, six years ago, from a Vulcan master - who doubled the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

	30-03-2003 03:04									#286
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Now to clear up the misconception about the Federation's size: http://www.ditl.org/index.htm?dayma...erationsize.htm

	30-03-2003 03:18									#287
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No they aren't. "The Gift": Janeway : "Ah! Tuvok's meditation lamp! I was with him when he got it, six years ago, from a Vulcan master - who doubled the price when he saw our Starfleet insignias."

Straight from that website;

Jake : "Come on Nog!"
Nog : "No!"
Jake : "Why not?"
Nog : "It's my money Jake. If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money."
Jake : "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog : "It's not my fault your species decided to abandon currency based economics in favour of some philosophy of self enhancement."
Jake : "Hey, watch it! There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity."
Nog : "What does that mean, exactly?"
Jake : "It means... it means we don't need money."
Nog : "Well if you don't need money then you certainly don't need mine."

Monopoly money, I'm telling you.
----------

stardestroyer.net aknowledges that, while there may be many thousand planets colonized by the Federation, only 150 are large enough to be members.

The Naboo sector has 36 Full member states, 40,000 Inhabited worlds, and 300,000,000 ( ) uninhabited systems.

	30-03-2003 03:22									#288
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Now to clear up the misconception about the Federation's size: http://www.ditl.org/index.htm?dayma...erationsize.htm

The author of that page is stretching it.

Lily : "How many planets are in this Federation?"
Picard : "Over one hundred and fifty, spread across eight thousand light years."

She asks a direct question, he answers directly. In light of Picard's knowledge and honesty, I think it's logical to assume that Kirk's statement is purely about the extent of humanity, not Federation territory, or it is simply a hyperbolic boast. He may also be referring to every dinky little outpost, which hardly adds much to the Federation's strategic position vis-a-vis the Empire, since the Empire controls a million worlds.

	30-03-2003 03:27									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Monopoly money, I'm telling you.

You're going to have a hard time explaining the action of Vash, who seems at least partially motivated by greed, if you are going to hold to the monopoly money theory. And you still haven't touched the Voyager quote I provided.

	30-03-2003 03:47									#290
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're going to have a hard time explaining the action of Vash, who seems at least partially motivated by greed, if you are going to hold to the monopoly money theory. And you still haven't touched the Voyager quote I provided.

Doesn't say if it's in Credits or Precious metals the deal was in.

One example was how Kassidy Yates paid her crew in Latinum. Now, why would she do that? One reason; Credits are worthless and easier to trake, much like the Rubles of the USSR. Odds are Her ship was involved in a little blackmarket smuggling (and we KNOW it was), and the authorities had the old "winki, wink, nudge nudge" deal going on.

	30-03-2003 08:31									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Oops, forgot the map!

That looks like the map of a very small galaxy. Similar to the Lesser Magellan Cloud.

	30-03-2003 08:34									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Lily : "How many planets are in this Federation?" Picard : "Over one hundred and fifty, spread across eight thousand light years."

No, no.

Lily: "How many planets are in this sector of the Federation?"

	30-03-2003 08:57									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That looks like the map of a very small galaxy. Similar to the Lesser Magellan Cloud.

Oh BS. You have no way of judging the size of the galaxy by that map...and again, canonical sources put it at 400 billion stars, over 100,000 ly across.

quote: No, no. Lily: "How many planets are in this sector of the Federation?"

You lose all credibility when posting out and out falsehoods like this.

http://www.stinsv.com/MOv/st8a2.htm

You can hear the actual sound clip from the movie above. Lily clearly says, "How many planets are in this Federation?". No "this sector" whatsoever.

Thank you, come again.

	30-03-2003 09:01									#294
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I just caught this one:

quote: stardestroyer.net aknowledges that, while there may be many thousand planets colonized by the Federation, only 150 are large enough to be members.

Are you really so desperate to prove your point that you would rely upon an obviously biased source of information?

	30-03-2003 09:06									#295
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I just caught this one: quote: stardestroyer.net aknowledges that, while there may be many thousand planets colonized by the Federation, only 150 are large enough to be members. Are you really so desperate to prove your point that you would rely upon an obviously biased source of information?

That information comes directly from canonical Star Trek sources. Unless Picard was inexplicably mistaken or lying to Lily?

How does that affect the argument? Considering that the industrial, speed and power advantages of the Empire can only be answered either with deus ex machinae ("Q will save us!") or pitiful responses like "We have the Picard maneuver," I hardly think it is our side that is desperate.

Whether the Federation has 150 worlds or a thousand, it is miniscule in comparison to the Empire's million worlds.

	30-03-2003 09:15									#296
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I realize I am out of my depth here, but I thought I would throw this out...

How about the possibility that the federation could wipe the floor with the empire because I seem to remember reading in one of the Timothy Zahn trilogy series with Thrawn, that the reason the rebels beat the empire at endor was because after the emperor was killed, the fleet lost all coordination and tactical skill (the emperor was controlling them thriough the force)

so, without the emperor or another powerful dark jedi to coordinate the fleets, the empire is really not that tactically savvy...and less of a threat to the seemingly more tactically skilled federation.

ehh

	30-03-2003 09:18									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Whether the Federation has 150 worlds or a thousand,

We're looking at 15-50,000 Federation worlds.

quote: it is miniscule in comparison to the Empire's million worlds.

We also have potentially one million habitable planets in the explored portion of the galaxy which are split among the major and minor powers. Should the Empire invade the Milky Way, I don't find it outside the realm of possibility that the balancing coalition that formed during the Dominion War could reconstitute itself.

Missed this one earlier:

quote: Considering that the industrial ... advantages of the Empire

http://www.ditl.org/index.htm?dayma...arfleetsize.htm

	30-03-2003 09:18									#298
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If Ewoks can defeat the Empire, I see no reason why the Vorlons would have trouble. Quality over quantity, you see...

	30-03-2003 09:28									#299
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We're looking at 15-50,000 Federation worlds.

There's no ST canonical source for that number. If the Federation only consists of 150 planets, as Picard says, then what else can be said?

quote: We also have potentially one million habitable planets in the explored portion of the galaxy which are split among the major and minor powers. Should the Empire invade the Milky Way, I don't find it outside the realm of possibility that the balancing coalition that formed during the Dominion War could reconstitute itself.

I think "one million" is a huge exaggeration there...would need to provide sources on that. How many of those inhabitable planets are actually inhabited? How many would possess any level of habitation significant enough to make them a factor?

I don't see all that much reason to think the other races would rush to band together to defeat the Empire. The Ferengi would probably view them as incredibly wealthy potential trading partners. The Romulans had to be tricked into helping the Federation before. The Klingons...well, maybe, but how trustworthy would they be after their sneak attack? Who else besides that?

	30-03-2003 09:34									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Oh BS. You have no way of judging the size of the galaxy by that map...and again, canonical sources put it at 400 billion stars, over 100,000 ly across.

After you look at a few more pictures of galaxies, you'll find out.

By the by, what the heck are "canonical sources?" I have already pointed out the silliness of the novels, but you are still sticking with them.