28-03-2003 22:06									#241
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They just prefer to destroy entire planets.

Which isn't the same as genocide.

"We had to destroy planet in order to save it..."

	28-03-2003 22:08									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Which isn't the same as genocide.

It's much more efficient.

	28-03-2003 22:52									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Anybody that knows Bab 5 knows in their heart that the Empire or Federation wouldn't stand a chance against the First Ones... So they just ignore this simple fact and try to argue who has the fastest ships... like that really matters...

Don't make me laugh...the "First Ones" have paper-thin ships that are vulnerable to Thermonuclear weapons. hell, even Federation ships aren't that weak!

	28-03-2003 22:56									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The only canonical source for Star Wars is George Lucas! WWGLS!

Even if we were to accept your argument,(which is nonsense, as George Lucas himself has said EU sources are considered canon unless contradicted by the movies, and even then, only that portion of the book is consideed void), the ANH novelization was written by Lucas.

	28-03-2003 23:06									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The only canonical source for Star Wars is George Lucas! WWGLS!

By this logic, the only canonical source for Star Trek is Gene Roddenberry, and since he is dead, anything made after his death wouldn't be considered canonical. Do you really want to go that route?

	28-03-2003 23:09									#246
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How the hell do TIE fighters move sideways? Earthforce fighters can do manuevers no fighters in Star Wars can do (as in, no need of r aturning radius). IN fighter to fighter battles the Star Wars fighters are toast.

As I said, since Star Wars uses the least real sicnece, they can mke stuff up, and hence "win".

	28-03-2003 23:29									#247
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How the hell do TIE fighters move sideways? Earthforce fighters can do manuevers no fighters in Star Wars can do (as in, no need of r aturning radius). IN fighter to fighter battles the Star Wars fighters are toast. As I said, since Star Wars uses the least real sicnece, they can mke stuff up, and hence "win".

SW Fighters are quite maneuverable. One of the favorite tactics for quick maneuvers is to cut one of the twin engines, thereby executing near-instant turns at sharp angles. Regardless, sheer numerical superiority + Imperial willingness to sustain huge casualties would negate any fighter advantage.

Ya know, the notion that ST is somehow scientifically superior is bunk. ST just employs more technobabble (which often paints it into limiting corners, actually). It's not any more scientifically sound in most instances. The ST writers just had more interest in delving for scientific-sounding terminology.

	29-03-2003 02:54									#248
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I don't buy it:

Star Trek originated fomr a sci-fi writer and they have at least attempted to keep a veneer or sicence. Star wars came from a man who wanted a space fantasy epic: it was only other afterwards who deiced to give it science. I would agree that ST still has far less science than B5, which attempted to put in the most science...but is certainly not 100% pure either.


Oh, and fighetr in B5 don't have to cut their power to do such turns. They are designed with such manuevers in mind. One of them could always move vertically to avoid the fire(though the strain on the pilot would be very high)

	29-03-2003 03:07									#249
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I don't follow the technical details of any of the series, so I just voted banana...anyway, from what I've seen of Trek, the original series was just as much a flight of fancy as star wars, and made some mistakes of its own. Like that one episode where the Enterprise got hit by a sonic weapon while floating in empty space...not that I think valuing entertainment over scientific verity is a bad thing. TOS was watchable. The later ones got so bogged down in "reality" that they lost all sense of wonder. Watching the recent series is like getting your teeth pulled.
Anyway, I'm going with the empire if we ignore the fact that I'm ignorant of all the mass/thrust ratios and whatnot. Their ships are bigger than Trek's, if I remember right, and they have the spooky jedi thing going on.

	29-03-2003 12:27									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It takes Han a matter of hours to traverse from the outer rim (Tatooine) to the Core (Alderaan). That's at least 30,000 ly in hours.

That's the core worlds of the Empire, not the core of the galaxy.

The whole idea of "canon" in SW is laughable, especially coming from Lucas. He's managed to defy "canon" in each movie he's made so far! Like Wookies replaced by Ewoks in RoJ, and where the heck did "midi-chlorians" come from in Ep I?!? Everything is pulled from Lucas' @ss and then reverse engineered into "canon."

Ming, I don't recall there is anything such as "shields" in B5. The Mimbari ships were invulnerable because they couldn't be targetted by any sensors the Earth forces had. Shadow ships certainly didn't have shields, they just had the ability to slip in and out of hyperspace to avoid detection and enemy attacks.

	29-03-2003 13:14									#251
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Shields would be worthless against the power of the weapons. We are talking planet killer weapons... ships wouldn't stand a chance, even with the wimpy shielding.

	29-03-2003 13:20									#252
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Too much sci-fi-techo-babble going on about two series that are simply figments of someone's imagination.

Putting it simply:

Star Trek is for sci-fi nerds who have nothing better to do than mingle on details of things that don't even exist and will never exist (at least not exactly like that)

Star Wars is for cool people like me who just want to watch a kick-ass flick and then get on with an active social life.

oh, and don't forget,

I AM YOUR FATHER

	29-03-2003 13:22									#253
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Oh, and anyone who has ever played X-Wing or TIE Fighters knows that those are the ultimate space simulators

	29-03-2003 14:54									#254
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Wow, this thread is longer than almost all the threads about the real war.

	29-03-2003 20:23									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov It takes Han a matter of hours to traverse from the outer rim (Tatooine) to the Core (Alderaan). That's at least 30,000 ly in hours. That's the core worlds of the Empire, not the core of the galaxy.

The Core Worlds are those that are closest to the core of the galaxy that were first colonized by humans from Coruscant. Going from the Outer Rim to a Core World is going to be a journey of tens of thousands of light years, no matter what.

quote: The whole idea of "canon" in SW is laughable, especially coming from Lucas. He's managed to defy "canon" in each movie he's made so far! Like Wookies replaced by Ewoks in RoJ, and where the heck did "midi-chlorians" come from in Ep I?!? Everything is pulled from Lucas' @ss and then reverse engineered into "canon."

I don't see how what Lucas has done is any different from what the writers of Star Trek have done. You scoff at "midi-chlorians" (which I also think are dumb), but what about ST's Q race and the Founders? Might as well have magic pixies, too.

And what are you talking about with the Wookies and Ewoks? The Ewoks didn't replace Wookies at all, so I'm not sure what you mean.

	29-03-2003 22:13									#256
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I don't see anything that indicates the Core Worlds are near the core of the galaxy. In fact, the history of the Sith implies that the Empire was confined to one side of the galaxy, with the Sith homeworld established opposite the galactic core by I-forget-who. A whole empire of previously unknown races was conquered by the Sith. A Sith battle fleet that invaded the Corelian side, generations later, was miraculously wiped out by I-forget-what-improbable-plot-device. The other side of the galaxy was never throughly explored by the Empire, much less controlled.

Yes, ST series have plenty of oddities but Roddenberry never claimed to establish a "canon." As ridiculous as Q or the shapeshifters may be they are used to explore some curious ideas. I can't say that Ewoks do the same.

Endor was originally supposed to be a Wookie colony, hence the believability that they might overcome a battallion of Stormtroopers despite lack of energy weapons. Anakin was supposed to be a teenager, hence the assertion that he was too old to safely train (and the like implications in ESB regarding Luke). Both of these were dumbed down during production to appeal to preadolescent audiences.

And need I mention...

spoiler(highlight to read): Jar-Jar Binks, the pinnacle of Lucas' creative abilities?

[The preceding is not recommended for readers who may be pregnant, have a heart condition or weak stomach.]

	29-03-2003 22:27									#257
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starGATE you ninnies.

	29-03-2003 22:31									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Shields would be worthless against the power of the weapons. We are talking planet killer weapons... ships wouldn't stand a chance, even with the wimpy shielding.

but ming, the planet did not have a sheild. who knows what would have happened if it had one.

you'd be suprised how effective shielding could be (in theory) with a large supply of power. In every show, to make it more fun, theres always a limit as to how powerful a shield is / how long it can last, but with a WHOLE PLANET's surplus power, you could probaby make a planetary sheild

	29-03-2003 22:37									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Shields would be worthless against the power of the weapons. We are talking planet killer weapons... ships wouldn't stand a chance, even with the wimpy shielding.

Ming, that doesn't change the fact that The First Ones have paper-thin hulls that are vulnerable to nukes. (And Narn freakin' Battlecrusiers).

Also Alderaan's planetary shield held off the DS1's superlaser for a split second. That's a powerful shield! And it sure as Hell would nullify the Shadow DeathCloud. (Vorlon planet killer we don't know, as we never saw it in action)

	29-03-2003 22:38									#260
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No, Ming, I mean that Vorlon and Shadow ships don't have shields, while ST and SW targetting isn't limited to radar and passive EM like near-future human tech in B5.

B5 races are dead meat.

	29-03-2003 22:39									#261
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Like something could dare to compete with babylon 5.

Star War is ok, but Star Trek

	29-03-2003 22:51									#262
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The technology of Earthforce is certainly limited (since they are actual humans in this gaalxy (unlike whatever these Star Wars things are, and are only in the mid 23nd century and not the mid 24th). The tech of the first ones isn't.

May i add a few things not said: it seems that the Empire is utterly clueless about Hyperspace, so in theory B% ships can move without any Emperial sensors being able to track them. As far as the Shadows are concerned, in theory they can phase in and out of hyperspace to attack Imperial ships, without the Empir being able to chase them down in hyperspace. This gives them some added mobiity. Also, I never saw any nanotechnology mentioned in star Wars: obviously the Star Trek universe has some, and so does the B5 universe (The shadow planet killer uses nanobots). Maybe there are ways of using nasnotech that might also inflict damage on the Empire they seem unable to conter against except int he most brute frce sort fo ways.

	29-03-2003 23:58									#263
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quote: Originally posted by GePap May i add a few things not said: it seems that the Empire is utterly clueless about Hyperspace, so in theory B% ships can move without any Emperial sensors being able to track them. As far as the Shadows are concerned, in theory they can phase in and out of hyperspace to attack Imperial ships, without the Empir being able to chase them down in hyperspace. This gives them some added mobiity. Also, I never saw any nanotechnology mentioned in star Wars: obviously the Star Trek universe has some, and so does the B5 universe (The shadow planet killer uses nanobots). Maybe there are ways of using nasnotech that might also inflict damage on the Empire they seem unable to conter against except int he most brute frce sort fo ways.

Nanotechnology ion SW has already been covered here (HInt: they have it in spades), and while the B5 version of Hyperspace will allow them to hide, it is signifigantly slower than SW Hyperspace.

First Ones tech has a;ready been covered.

	30-03-2003 00:05									#264
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quote: Nanotechnology ion SW has already been covered here

Where? I still say that the ability to fire while cloaked would give ST the edge over the Empire and I haven't even gone into the tactical advantages the phase cloak gives them.

	30-03-2003 00:25									#265
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Where? I still say that the ability to fire while cloaked would give ST the edge over the Empire and I haven't even gone into the tactical advantages the phase cloak gives them.

What the devil do you think a World Devastator's Molecular furnace is, a cruisinart? I covered that on the first or second page.

Cloaked ships in SW universe can fire too. Just as fortunately, There are methods for the SW has for detecting cloaked vessels. Expensive, but better than setting up elaborate "Tachyon grids".

Phase cloak? Oh, you mean the one phasecloak in existance that was (a)unstable, and (b) only seen once, dispite the fact the Federation's existance was on the verge of being destroyed by both the Dominion and the Borg? I find it likely that the phasecloak would not be used in any meaningful way in the campaign.

DinoDoc, I find it odd you'd be rooting for the communist Federation to win. I thought you were a founding member of the AECCP?

	30-03-2003 00:44									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar There are methods for the SW has for detecting cloaked vessels. Expensive, but better than setting up elaborate "Tachyon grids".

What kind of geek are you? Anti-proton scans are the order of the day now.

quote: I find it likely that the phasecloak would not be used in any meaningful way in the campaign.

I disbelieve. So far the only thing that has kept them from being fully deployed are the obligations placed upon them in thier treaty with the Romulan Star Empire. Facing an enemy of the "claimed" size of the Empire and the current era of good feelings in the wake of Nemesis I wouldn't expect those to be much of an impediment.

quote: I thought you were a founding member of the AECCP?

The Ferengi are "allies" of the Federation as a result of Rom becoming Grand Nagus.

PS One Fed ship stopped an invasion by the Vong equivilant, Species 8472. How hard do you think it would be for the entire Federation to take on the Empire.

	30-03-2003 01:02									#267
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What kind of geek are you? Anti-proton scans are the order of the day now.

pff, all the Empire has to do is install CGT scanners on their larger ships with their battlegroups and the cloak advantage is nullified.

quote: I disbelieve. So far the only thing that has kept them from being fully deployed are the obligations placed upon them in thier treaty with the Romulan Star Empire. Facing an enemy of the "claimed" size of the Empire and the current era of good feelings in the wake of Nemesis I wouldn't expect those to be much of an impediment.

And the Dominion landing troops on Betazed, Bolarus, and bombing Earth wouldn't count as "dire straits"? Hell, as far as we know, the RSE didn't revoke the "Only in the Gamma quadrant" rule for the Defiant.

Incidently, a "column" on the official www.startrek.com indicated that we shouldn't take to hood feelings atface value by anymeans. Remember, there were "good feelings" after the DW, yet the RSE military was more than willing to support Shinzon if he attacked the UFP.

quote: The Ferengi are "allies" of the Federation as a result of Rom becoming Grand Nagus.

Whoop-de-doo. Still doesn't change the fact that the Federation is a communist society with starfleet providing judges for civilian cases, the government can shut down the media on a whim, thay sell out their colonists to foriegn powers, and have monopoly money for currency.

	30-03-2003 01:18									#268
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We can settle this debate here with the Star Wars vs. Star Trek Mod.

	30-03-2003 01:23									#269
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I've seen mods where the Federation is vastly overpowered, and where the Empire is underpowered. We settle this like geeks!

	30-03-2003 01:28									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar We settle this like geeks!

Then respond to my post script about Species 8472.