26-03-2003 08:58									#61
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I hope the world doesn't end in my lifetime. I couldn't stand all those lunatic fringe people saying I told you so.

	26-03-2003 09:05									#62
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Who cares about the Romans? I mentioned the Jews. If the Jews say that the tomb was empty, then should we not believe what they say, especially since they are fiercest enemies of the early Christians?

The Jews were under Roman rules at the time. Therefore, official Jewish records would become part of the offical Roman records. Hence my question.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 How do they differ? If you're going to point out discreprencies, its nice to show me which ones are problematic for you.

How do they differ? Don't tell me you can't find differences among the four descriptions. Try this challenge. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book. That will be Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and I Corinthians 15:3-8, a total of 165 verses. Without omitting any single details from these accounts, write a single, comprehensive, chronological narrative of the events between the Resurrection and the Ascension. What happened first? When? To whom? Etc.

Good luck.

	26-03-2003 09:16									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How do they differ? Don't tell me you can't find differences among the four descriptions. Try this challenge. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book. That will be Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and I Corinthians 15:3-8, a total of 165 verses. Without omitting any single details from these accounts, write a single, comprehensive, chronological narrative of the events between the Resurrection and the Ascension. What happened first? When? To whom? Etc.

Those four books are told from four different person's points-of-view. For example, the book of Matthew is from Matthew's point-of-view. You can be rest assured that none of these men remembered the exact details of what happened when they wrote these books, and therefore their stories clash a little bit. But some of the men saw things that others didn't, so that explains a lot of it.

	26-03-2003 09:18									#64
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Jesus was a real person, and a truly master philosopher. IMO, quite easily the greatest philosopher that has ever lived. In fact, he was even crucified and subsequently rose from the dead as the bible says. That said, however, not everything the bible says about Jesus is necessarily true. For example the crux of Christianity is built upon the idea that Jesus died as a sacrificial lamb of sorts for all of humanity, and that to believe in him is the only way to salvation. That is where the 4th century clerics start to show themselves. Jesus' sacrifice was to show us how to live the perfect life.

In the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus actually did sweat blood, as He foresaw, with perfect clarity, all the cruelty that infantile, small-minded souls would shortly inflict upon Him. When the angry mob of brutes came for Him, brandishing clubs and swords, He chose not to disappear, nor to use any other divine power of escape, as He had often done during His ministry in Palestine.

Fully aware that we all are eternal, and that death is merely an illusion, Christ, like a lamb before its shearer, tolerates His gruesome execution. He blesses His executioners with a boundless love as they brutally take His life, and He prays, God, forgive these men! They are children at play, unaware of the truth. "They know not what they do."

This sets an example of absolute perfection for all of mankind to attempt to follow after.

So was Jesus the son of God? It depends on your meaning, but we are all part of God.
Was Jesus God? Jesus lived such a perfect life that he was absolutely one with God and spoke with the authority of God. So in that sense, he was.

So while I reject much of the religious construction of the bible, I consider myself a Christian in that I am an firm advocate of Jesus' teachings. In fact, I think Christianity has the greatest message of all the major world religions (although Buddhism and Hinduism give it a good run for the money). But I can assure the souls here who have grown up with "fire and brimstone" fundamentalism (I was one of them), that they are in for a rather pleasent surprise one day, God is much nicer than perhaps we were led to believe while we were growing up.

	26-03-2003 09:24									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Those four books are told from four different person's points-of-view. For example, the book of Matthew is from Matthew's point-of-view. You can be rest assured that none of these men remembered the exact details of what happened when they wrote these books, and therefore their stories clash a little bit. But some of the men saw things that others didn't, so that explains a lot of it.

I wasn't asking for an explanation to why they differ. I was asking how these contradictions can be reconciled.

	26-03-2003 09:25									#66
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There's always been a fundamental problem for Christians in predicting the end of the world.

Firstly, its probably blasphemous. Jesus says clearly in several places that he doesn't know when the end is and solemnly warns believers not to follow people who say they do. He calls them false prophets. That's pretty damning. Sometimes I wonder how these fundamentalist Christians somehow miss these clear warnings from Jesus himself.

Secondly, the mainstream theological interpretation of the Book of Apocalypse or Revelation is that it was not meant as a book of prophecy. It was meant as a message of hope for contemporary Christians at a time of Roman persecution. Most of the symbolism refers to ancient Rome. The language was "coded" to avoid Roman censorship.

Thirdly when a Christian dies, effectively they enter the Apocalypse because their next conscious moment is the end times. So why worry?

	26-03-2003 09:26									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Those four books are told from four different person's points-of-view. For example, the book of Matthew is from Matthew's point-of-view. You can be rest assured that none of these men remembered the exact details of what happened when they wrote these books, and therefore their stories clash a little bit. But some of the men saw things that others didn't, so that explains a lot of it.

That would negate the "infallibility" argument of the Bible, proving it is a creation of fallible humans and ergo prone to human errors of perception. This would render any notion that the Bible is the Word of God or in anyway a text to be taken literally to be laughable.

But that's probably exactly the case (barring the obvious, "they just made it all up" idea).

	26-03-2003 09:30									#68
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Some parts of the Bible are indeed, divinely inspired. But Boris is right for the most part, the Bible is the work of a very fallible humanity. I would even say that a minority of the bible is divinely inspired. But it is of little consequence, no Bible has ever been needed, God's true message is within us all.

	26-03-2003 09:36									#69
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider God's true message is within us all.

"Go forth and procreate."

	26-03-2003 09:36									#70
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If the moves for a "new world order" strenghten and the UN gets an uplift, with the 10 regional zones it has assigned to the world becoming ACTUAL zones of control(with the UN administrating the entire world via the representative "presidents" assigned to/from these regions/zones), then you will know the End-Times are near.

	26-03-2003 09:42									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Firstly, its probably blasphemous. Jesus says clearly in several places that he doesn't know when the end is and solemnly warns believers not to follow people who say they do. He calls them false prophets. That's pretty damning. Sometimes I wonder how these fundamentalist Christians somehow miss these clear warnings from Jesus himself.

That's a fallacy. For I have not predicted the hour or day of His coming, but the "season" of His coming. In other words, the general period of time of His coming.

	26-03-2003 09:42									#72
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Boris:

As far as I know, the Scriptures are the only historical source we have directly citing the stolen body hypothesis of the Jews and the Romans. However,

"
Further, there was great excitement over bodies missing from tombs in Judea in the first half of the first century. This fact is known due to the discovery in Nazareth of a decree of Claudius (reigned 41-54 AD). It reads, "Ordinance of Caesar. It is my pleasure that graves and tombs remain perpetually undisturbed .... In case of violation I desire that the offender be sentenced to capital punishment on charge of violation of sepulchre" (Habermas, p.155).
"

One explaination for the source of this edict is the empty tomb of Christ. The death penalty seems substantially out of place for the crime, and the time period is quite right for this event.

Also, for more Extrabiblical testimony of Christ, not for the stolen body, but for the resurrection:

Josephus:

Antiquities 18.3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_JOS.html#test

Now, here we have testimony that not only does Christ exist, but also, that his followers believe that Christ died and appeared to them on the third day.

You also have not refuted my question. All the Jews needed to do to disprove Christianity was to produce the body of Christ. Why did they not?

UR:
I'm not doing your work for you. Provide inconsistencies, or I will assume you are silent for these points.

	26-03-2003 09:51									#73
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monkspider, et al:

Setting aside the point of divine inspiration of the Bible, I think that it is important to point out that the Bible is the strongest historical source for the time period. Of any events, we should be most confident of the biblical events than for the other historians.

Agreed, for any historical book, it makes sense to be skeptical about things like the resurrection.

But look at the evidence supplied in the bible... Not only do they cite the Jews' opposition, but they also cite the arguments of the Jews. This is to be considered very accurate historical testimony because the Christians have no motivation to distort the testimony of the Jews.

	26-03-2003 09:53									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger "Go forth and procreate."

Anyway, someone was talking about Sadaam being the third antichrist. It is interesting because Sadaam, Bush, and Usama can all be construed into being Mabus. However, if you look at the rest of the how Nostradamus says, it could be no one other than Bush, or perhaps Mabus is actually an amalgam of all three of these villainous figures. In any event, this is what Nostradamus said:
Mabus then will soon die, there will come
Of people and beasts a horrible rout:
Then suddenly one will see vengeance,
thirst, hunger when the comet will run

How does Mabus become GW Bush you ask? Take the first two letters, M and A, turn them upside down, and hold them up to a mirror and they become gW. The little a, upside down and mirrored becomes a g, and obviously the M becomes a W. Now simply add that to bus and you get gWbus. Remarkably close to GW Bush
As for the rest of the quatrain.
Lines 2 and 3 – The only country that is capable of delivering the unprecedented vengence is the United States, and if Bush is assasinated by a terrorist you can be sure that, in the national mood that the United States is in, there would be a counter attack unequaled in the history of man.
Line 4: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2779633.stm
Comet NEAT and the mysterious Planet X are all candidates for this comet mentioned. Both should pass the Earth this year or next.


The other major quatrain related to Mabus is as follows:
The antichrist very soon annihilates the three,
twenty-seven years his war will last.
The unbelievers are dead, captive, exiled;
with blood, human bodies, water and red hail covering the earth.

Line One: Clearly referring to "Axis of Evil", the three countries Persia, N. Korea, and Iraq.
Line Two: Implies that the so-called War on Terror will lead to a war lasting twenty seven years. Certainly Bush has implied that his war will not end soon.
Line Three: The unbelievers to a Frenchmen like Nostradamus could only be the Muslims. This implies that there will be a general middle eastern war breaks out in which numerous Muslims are killed.
Line Four: The aftermath of the war.

	26-03-2003 09:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 monkspider, et al: Setting aside the point of divine inspiration of the Bible, I think that it is important to point out that the Bible is the strongest historical source for the time period. Of any events, we should be most confident of the biblical events than for the other historians. Agreed, for any historical book, it makes sense to be skeptical about things like the resurrection. But look at the evidence supplied in the bible... Not only do they cite the Jews' opposition, but they also cite the arguments of the Jews. This is to be considered very accurate historical testimony because the Christians have no motivation to distort the testimony of the Jews.

Obi, re-read my post. I do not dispute Jesus' ressurection in the least.

	26-03-2003 10:00									#76
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Some parts of the Bible are indeed, divinely inspired. But Boris is right for the most part, the Bible is the work of a very fallible humanity. I would even say that a minority of the bible is divinely inspired. But it is of little consequence, no Bible has ever been needed, God's true message is within us all.

Have faith. For the way the Bible is written is most certainly the way God wanted us to hear it, no matter the discrepancies.

	26-03-2003 10:00									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 That's a fallacy. For I have not predicted the hour or day of His coming, but the "season" of His coming. In other words, the general period of time of His coming.

Go and have a look at Mark 13:34 or Mathew 24:36, you ignorant git.

"noone knows the day or the hour, only the Father knows"

	26-03-2003 10:05									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Go and have a look at Mark 13:34 or Mathew 24:36, you ignorant git. "noone knows the day or the hour, only the Father knows"

How typical of an Apolyton poster. I knew I might be persecuted if I came back.

BTW, you're not making any sense. I just said I am NOT predicting the day or the hour!

	26-03-2003 10:07									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Have faith. For the way the Bible is written is most certainly the way God wanted it, no matter the discrepancies.

Don't worry friend, I have an overabundance of faith.
As for the Bible, I don't have anything against it, in fact, I have a great deal of respect for it (mostly the Gospels, Proverbs, and a few other sections in the New Testament). However passages such as the one where God is said to command the Israelites to kill every man, woman and child clearly do not accurately depict God, but rather the mythology of the ancient Hebrew people.

But hey, don't take my word for it. I urge you to believe what you wish, and simply continue to seek out God. God will always make himself known to those who enthusiastically seek.

	26-03-2003 10:07									#80
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quote: Obi, re-read my post. I do not dispute Jesus' ressurection in the least.

I don't want to get into biblical infalliability arguments at this point. That's why I addressed the remark to you in particular, since you said that some parts are infalliable, and some are not.

	26-03-2003 10:07									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 How typical of an Apolyton poster. I knew I might be persecuted if I came back. BTW, you're not making any sense. I just said I am NOT predicting the day or the hour!

No, you're just predicting the "season" - a loophole worthy of Pharissee.

Why waste your money by giving it to crackpots who predict the end of the world? I know its lucrative for them, there's a sucker born every day.

	26-03-2003 10:07									#82
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Josephus: Antiquities 18.3.3

That is now widely held to be a forgery, a later intrapolation by Christians.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I'm not doing your work for you. Provide inconsistencies, or I will assume you are silent for these points.

I have already asked to to show that these contradictions in all four of the accounts can be reconciled. Even Cloud9 and Monkspider have admitted that they exist.

If there really are no inconsistencies, you will absolutely no difficiculties in formulating the narrative, no?

	26-03-2003 10:31									#83
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Cloud 9, monkspider:

Do you believe that there are any substantive inconsistencies present in the Gospel accounts of Christ's death and resurrection?

If so, what are they?

Otherwise, find your own, UR.

quote: That is now widely held to be a forgery, a later intrapolation by Christians.

* Ben Kenobi rubs eyes,
A substantive point!

"
Elsewhere, Meier [Meie.MarJ2, 59] notes that the "total interpolation" position has its respectable defenders, but it is not a majority view."

Some parts of the Josephus quote can be regarded as interpolations. My source regards the bolded sections as less trustworthy. The parts in brackets were seen in the Arabic, and have been left off from the version I presented earlier. When we restore these parts, we see only one suggested interpolation.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man,
if it be lawful to call him a man,
for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure.
He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.

(they called him)

He was the Christ,
and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;

(they reported)

for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.
And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day.

	26-03-2003 10:39									#84
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Cloud 9, monkspider: Do you believe that there are any substantive inconsistencies present in the Gospel accounts of Christ's death and resurrection?

Hmm, I don't think there were any that struck me as particularly noteworthy. If there are some that I may not have noticed, I would hold them to probably be irrelevent anyway, since I already do not believe that the bible is infallible. UR was just making a point I believe.

	26-03-2003 10:44									#85
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I thought other quatrains from Nostradamus describe the antichrist as being a man from the east and wearing a blue turbin. I don't think he was referring to Yale. Most interpreters take the antichrist as appearing in the middleast. Also, while some may call Bush a warmonger, I don't think he merits the vicious description Nostradamus applies to the antichrist.

For those unfamiliar with Nostradamus' use of the term antichrist, it is used for leaders who launch the world into war. Napoleon is considered the first anitchrist, Hitler the second, and the third is yet to come. Unless Saddam escapes and comes back in some united arab coalition, I don't think he's the leader who will give us a war to dwarf the scale of destruction of WWII. The gulf wars just don't have that magnitude. I hadn't considered Usama???

It is only speculation to say that the third antichrist of Nostradamus matches up with the Beast of Revelation or that the appearance of the third antichrist signals the end times.

Urban Ranger, there is no great inconsistancy among the gospel accounts. The details differ, but you can draw a general story of the discovery of the empty tomb on Sunday by the women and the appearance of Jesus later to the disciples. I would be more concerned if the stories were identical. Disbelievers like to have it both ways. If the stories are the same, they claim they were copied and not independant. The fact that all the accounts were available and not doctored to match lends to their credibility and disputes the legend myth argument.

Of course I don't take the Bible to be inerrant, only God inspired. Check the beginning of Luke, he doesn't use the "God told me" arguement to support the validity of his writing.

	26-03-2003 10:46									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Thirdly when a Christian dies, effectively they enter the Apocalypse because their next conscious moment is the end times. So why worry?

right

Jon Miller

	26-03-2003 10:48									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 How typical of an Apolyton poster. I knew I might be persecuted if I came back. BTW, you're not making any sense. I just said I am NOT predicting the day or the hour!

but you are making the same mistake that some made int he US ~ 1844

Jon Miller

	26-03-2003 10:53									#88
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I agree that Christ is coming soon

I think that the Left Behind books should not be looked towards for theological guidance

I don't beleive int he Rapture (and have no clue how it got so popular)

I beleive the Bible infallible, and by that I mean that if you study the Bible looking for truth, in prayer, and if you believe it infallible, than you will be touched by the infallible Bible

Jon Miller

	26-03-2003 10:55									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman I thought other quatrains from Nostradamus describe the antichrist as being a man from the east and wearing a blue turbin. I don't think he was referring to Yale. Most interpreters take the antichrist as appearing in the middleast. Also, while some may call Bush a warmonger, I don't think he merits the vicious description Nostradamus applies to the antichrist. For those unfamiliar with Nostradamus' use of the term antichrist, it is used for leaders who launch the world into war. Napoleon is considered the first anitchrist, Hitler the second, and the third is yet to come. Unless Saddam escapes and comes back in some united arab coalition, I don't think he's the leader who will give us a war to dwarf the scale of destruction of WWII. The gulf wars just don't have that magnitude. I hadn't considered Usama???

I agree that the jury is still out in regards to Mabus. I think that it is very possible that Bush could plunge the world into great cataclysm, and I would even hold it to be extremely likely at this hour. But time will tell, I do not hold Nostradamus as canon. I am not sure if the antichrist is the blue turbaned man from the east you speak of. I remember hearing that on a show about Nostradamus that Orson Welles hosted, but I have never seen any quatrains to back it up. It could be just a westerner misunderstanding, after all, we would be rather loathe to admit that the antichrist could be from America. In any event, the blue turbaned man could be referring to someone else entirely.

There is another quatrain that describes a King of Terror to come in September, 1999. It is unclear if this is the antichrist, but it could be Usama, perhaps Nosty was just off by a couple years. Then again, Bush won the Republican nomination in September, 1999! He is definitely a king of terror right now! It is interesting how these quatrains could so easily apply to both Bush and Usama! I still think it is possible that the Mabus character actually was a representation of both of them.

	26-03-2003 10:57									#90
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I don't consider Nostradamus to be that true either

Jon Miller