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gunkulator
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Ya know there just aren't enough threads with the word "behold" in them.
That's all I got.
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Frogman
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Toll, I'm keeping up just fine. I don't know why obiwan picked 60 years. The gospels are pretty well accepted to have been written starting with Mark in the late 50's and ending with Revelation around 90 AD. The letters of Paul are considered the earliest and most reliably written and dated materials starting around 55 AD. Also, Paul was not preaching to the uninitiated. This was a small group which included the apostles and many of the followers of Jesus and John the Baptist. They weren't waiting for some revelation from Paul, they heard it right from Jesus.
The letters of Paul contain references to many events of the gospels and he confirms the healings and many of the miracles of Jesus. I don't doubt that some fanciful legend could have crept in to some of the gospel accounts. I think Matthew is a little embellished. I don't believe the dead coming out of their graves when Jesus died, none of the other gospels include that rather noticable detail. But I don't doubt that Jesus healed many people, crowds decended upon him from the trees just to touch him. You can believe he healed people or not, but to deny that people of his time didn't believe in his power is just pigheaded.
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RAW_OmarBKhatab
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MAJOR SIGNS LEADING TO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
1. Muslims reach the peak of their military power. (compared to what they used to have 1400 years back)
2. AL-MAHDI(The Guided one) will appear just before the time of the Dajjaal(Anti Christ). He will call to the true Islam, and will be a military leader.
3. THE DAJJAAL(Anti Christ) will come claiming to be god holding Heaven and h-e-ll. His purpose is to deceive, and unbelievers will follow him.
4. EESA (Alayhis salaam), [Essa is aka Jesus in Christianity] will descend at the time of Fajr Salaat on a Masjid in Damascus, Syria. He will call people back to Islam, but he will also be a military leader. The people of the book[Christians and Jews] will revert to Islam, and wealth will be super-abundant. He will break the cross, kill the swine, and
slay the Dajjaal(Anti Christ). He will stay on Earth for a long time thereafter, and then die.
5. THE DAABBAH (an animal) will come and call people back to Islam. The
description of the animal is unknown.
6. JAJOOJ AND MAJOOJ (two hidden tribes of people, Gog & Magog) will break free of the dam that holds them back, and ravage the earth. They will drink all the water, and kill people until Allah sends against them a worm which will wipe them out. This is roughly before / during the time of Eesa (Alayhis salaam), although it is not entirely clear.
7. SMOKE will appear all over the earth which will cause believers to catch
something similar to a slight cold, whereas the unbelievers will be hit
harder by it. Finally, a cold wind will come and kill all believers, leaving
only unbelievers on the earth who will then witness the LAST HOUR. The angel Israfil will blow a trumpet, and the resurrection of all human beings will begin. At this point, the Day of Resurrection commences in which the skies and earth are destroyed by Allah, the Mighty.
[Note: Muslim will not witness the horor of the last hour. Allah will not distroy the earth till there is a single Muslim alive. That is why, all Muslim will prerish, and then the end of the Universe will procede ]
Post for Education purposes! Islam is of Great interest in todays world. I did my job contributing
Think about thses:
It is said in Islamic world that Free Maisons (The Illimunaties) are the forerunners of Dajjal(Anit Christ)
Anti Christ will be a Jew and Jews will be his 1st followers.
Only a True Muslim will know who is anti christ. Others will think he is a peace keeper and savior of earth.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by RAW_OmarBKhatab
MAJOR SIGNS LEADING TO THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
1. Muslims reach the peak of their military power. (compared to what they used to have 1400 years back)
2. AL-MAHDI(The Guided one) will appear just before the time of the Dajjaal(Anti Christ). He will call to the true Islam, and will be a military leader.
3. THE DAJJAAL(Anti Christ) will come claiming to be god holding Heaven and h-e-ll. His purpose is to deceive, and unbelievers will follow him.
4. EESA (Alayhis salaam), [Essa is aka Jesus in Christianity] will descend at the time of Fajr Salaat on a Masjid in Damascus, Syria. He will call people back to Islam, but he will also be a military leader. The people of the book[Christians and Jews] will revert to Islam, and wealth will be super-abundant. He will break the cross, kill the swine, and
slay the Dajjaal(Anti Christ). He will stay on Earth for a long time thereafter, and then die.
5. THE DAABBAH (an animal) will come and call people back to Islam. The
description of the animal is unknown.
6. JAJOOJ AND MAJOOJ (two hidden tribes of people, Gog & Magog) will break free of the dam that holds them back, and ravage the earth. They will drink all the water, and kill people until Allah sends against them a worm which will wipe them out. This is roughly before / during the time of Eesa (Alayhis salaam), although it is not entirely clear.
7. SMOKE will appear all over the earth which will cause believers to catch
something similar to a slight cold, whereas the unbelievers will be hit
harder by it. Finally, a cold wind will come and kill all believers, leaving
only unbelievers on the earth who will then witness the LAST HOUR. The angel Israfil will blow a trumpet, and the resurrection of all human beings will begin. At this point, the Day of Resurrection commences in which the skies and earth are destroyed by Allah, the Mighty.
[Note: Muslim will not witness the horor of the last hour. Allah will not distroy the earth till there is a single Muslim alive. That is why, all Muslim will prerish, and then the end of the Universe will procede ]
Post for Education purposes! Islam is of Great interest in todays world. I did my job contributing
Think about thses:
It is said in Islamic world that Free Maisons (The Illimunaties) are the forerunners of Dajjal(Anit Christ)
Anti Christ will be a Jew and Jews will be his 1st followers.
Only a True Muslim will know who is anti christ. Others will think he is a peace keeper and savior of earth. |
interesting
Jon Miller
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Jack_www
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It seems with every war many think the world is going to end right then. Which is not hard to blame people especially with all the things going on in the world today.
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Proteus_MST
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quote:
Originally posted by atawa
Why will christians follow a jewish anti christ?
Why do you btw call him the anti christ if you dont recognise christ as the god-son?
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The Muslims do recognize Christ as Prophet and mention him in the Quran (can´t point you to the exact passages, after all I am no muslim, but maybe RAW will)
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gunkulator
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quote:
Was that directed at me? |
I think he had someone like me in mind.
quote:
It is aimed at all the spammers, trolls and anti religious people. |
Cripes, who's left? Satire is a form of rhetoric, but apparently not a sanctioned one here. Personal attacks are one thing but satire? As you wish Ming. I'll leave discussions about Jesus and the Easter Bunny to The Chosen True Believers.
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RAW_OmarBKhatab
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Christians call "DAJJAL" as Anti Christ.
I mentioned Anti-Christ so that christians can comprehend who I am talking about.
Jesus is a Propeht of Allah and in Islam we call Jesus as Prophet Essa(as), Son Of Vergin Mary.
Jesus was nothing more than a Human and a Prophet like Prophet Abraham, Prophet Musa (Moses) and Prophet Mohammed(saw).
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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quote:
Most churches also agree that the contradictions in the bible stories do not invalidate them. They point to a deeper truth.
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AH:
True... but it's one thing to have a Christian making that argument, and another coming from a secular humanist.
Till is not even making this argument. He says that these difficulties are important, to the point where they render scripture invalid.
So if the first point is the point you are trying to make, Till cannot make this argument for you.
I'm working on the rebuttal right now, I have classes Thursday morning.
Frogger:
Distance from John's Gospel to Christ is about 60 years.
That's why I used that number, so that we can submit all of the Gospels as historical evidence, not just the synoptics. But you are right in that there is only about 25 years from the first records we have of Christ, that is 1 Cor:15.
Tolls:
quote:
It took less than 60 years for the myths around Joseph Smith to build up, or Brigham Young for that matter. A whole mythology existed in less than 50 years...
People will happily believe what they want to believe, and ignore the people giving contradictory evidence.
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Let's look at the myth. All Joseph Smith claims to be is a prophet from God, and not God himself. Christ not only claims to be God, but also provides evidence of his claims through his death and resurrection.
Many prophets come and go, but none have risen from the dead. So the mythology surrounding Joseph Smith only can bear witness to a prophet.
Also, unlike Christ, historic evidence exists to disprove many of the claims attributed to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Here's one example.
quote:
In LDS Sunday School many Mormons will only hear a sanitized version of Joseph Smith's history. Most Mormons will not learn that Jospeh drank beer and wine on numerous occassions, or that he obtained a liquor license from the City of Nauvoo. Nor, will most Mormons be taught about his polyandrous relationships with married women, or his violation of Illinois State law and the Doctrine and Covenants in his practice of polygamy. What's surprising is that during Joseph Smith's lifetime, he never publicly taught polygamy. Joseph Smith and the other LDS Church leaders maintained a public denial of polygamy while practicing it privately.
In LDS Sunday School most will hear about the persecution of the Mormons in great detail. Yet, one will likely not learn that Joseph Smith planned agression against the state of Missouri and the United States government. In fact, Joseph Smith was charged with and indicted on the charge of treason in Missouri. However, he escaped from jail prior to his conviction on these charges. Joseph Smith also ordered the desctruction of a town newspaper, Nauvoo Expositor, which exposed his private doctrine and practice of polygamy.
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http://www.mindspring.com/~engineer_my_dna/mormon/
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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AH:
Apolyton was down for awhile, now I can post my rebuttal.
It does matter because a Christian will argue under the assumption that the bible is valid, while Till argues that the bible has no use at all.
It makes it much harder for me to argue against a Christian, than it is for someone like Till.
Anyways, the rebuttal:
Till's arguments.
1. Each Gospel records a different time of day for when the women left.
This is not hard. The passages in question:
John 20:1
"Early in the morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdelene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance."
Luke 24:1
"On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb."
Mark 16:2
"Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb."
Matthew 28:1
"After Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb."
The standard harmonisation is not difficult.
Mark's time, just after sunrise, refers to the time while the women were on their way to the tomb.
John's time refers to the time when they left.
Luke contradicts with no one, since the morning begins before the sun rises,
Matthew again, the time can be said to refer to the women on their way to the tomb. The dawn begins with the sun rising, just after the darkness has receded.
2. Each Gospel lists a different number of women coming from the tomb.
The passages in question:
Matthew 28:1
"..Mary Magdelene and the other Mary went down to look at the tomb."
Mark 16:1
"..Mary Magdelene, Mary the mother of James and Salome.."
Luke 24:1, .."the women.." Later referred to in Luke 24:10, "..Mary Magdelene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James and the others with them."
John 20:1, "..Mary Magdelene went to the tomb.."
Till argues that because John neglects to mention the same number as Luke, therefore John is saying that these women were not there. This is an argument from silence, and can be disposed of such.
Also, as we see in John 20:2, "..'They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him.'.."
We refers to a number of women not specifically identified by John.
3. Each Gospel reports a different account for the angels:
Again, all four passages in question:
John 20:11-12
"but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomv and saw two angels in white seated where Jesus' body had been."
Luke 24:4
"While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them."
Mark 16:5
"As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side."
Matthew 28:2-3
"..an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearence was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow."
Same deal as before. All of the gospels report an angel, some say there were two, and others only mention one. This does not show that the second was not there, only that two of the Gospels do not mention the other one.
4. Matthew's account must have Mary arrive at the tomb while the stone is being rolled away, contradicting the other 3 Gospels, which say the stone rolled away before the women arrived.
Just one passage here, Matthew 28 1-2.
"After Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it."
Now, his entire case rests on the meaning of 'there was' at the start of 28:2.
"Now there had been" is the sense of the words, therefore, it does not validate the claim of Till. The passage says that Mary walked over to the tomb, and then cuts back to talk about the stone rolling away. Then we come to the passage where Mary talks to the angel.
5. John's account of Mary does not seem to square with Luke and Matthew, in that she seems to be distressed, while Luke's says that she was full of joy.
The passages in question:
John 20:2
..'They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him.'.."
Luke 24:8
"Then they remembered his words."
Mark 16:8
"Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid."
Matthew 28:8
"So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid, yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples."
Mark and Matthew are not contradictory, since one can certainly be both afraid and full of joy at the same time.
However, John seems more troublesome, since Mary did not seem to understand about the resurrection.
But it is not hard to blend the two together, especially if you consider independent eye-witness testimony. "They" in Luke need not include Mary Magdelene if Luke does not use Mary Magdelene as a source for his Gospel. "They understood and remembered," could very well exclude Mary Magdelene.
6. Matthew states that the first appearance of Christ to Mary happens before the meeting with the Apostles, which is contradictory with the other Gospels.
The passage of Matthew 28:8-9
"So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. 'Greetings,' he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshipped him. Then Jesus said to them, 'Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.'"
Mark 16:9
"When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons."
No difficulties here. Mark does not specify whether the encounter with Christ occurs before or after the meeting with the apostles.
Luke does not mention the appearance of Christ to Mary. Again, this does not prove that it did not happen, it reinforces the hypothesis that Luke does not use Mary Magdalene as a primary source.
John 20:10,14
"Then the disciples went back to their homes,..
"At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realise that it was Jesus."
Must the women referred to in Matthew include Mary Magdalene? Not necessarily. John in 20:2 refers to Mary Magdelene running off to the Apostles. Therefore, it seems reasonable to conclude that Mary Magdelene informed the disciples herself, without the other women. When she returned to the grave, with Peter, then Christ appeared to her, then to the other women, as referred to in Matthew 28:8, while they were still on they way to inform the Apostles.
So Matthew's passage, rather than a contradiction, does not prove everything Till wants the passage to prove.
7. The confusion of Mary Magdalene.
John notes that Mary, during the appearance of Christ to Mary, does not seem to recognise Christ. However, the passage he cites, does not specifically refer to Mary Magdalene.
" They came to him, clasped his feet and worshpped him,"
Mary Magdelene is not specifically referred to in this passage, so we do not know if Mary was among those present. If Mary was not present, then she would not be among those worshipping the risen Christ.
The rest is mere rhetorical flourish.
Oh, and I forgot:
"So once again I must remind readers of the rule of evidence that says falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus (false in one thing, false in everything). When alleged witnesses to an event contradict themselves as flagrantly as did the four gospel writers in their accounts of the resurrection, everything that they said must be viewed with suspicion."
Essentially, if I make one mistake, I am completely unreliable. This is a joke in the analysis; all the time we look at sources that may be falliable, yet we extract that which is reliable from an otherwise unreliable source.
Supposing Till were correct in his hypotheses presented, that these specific details are wrong in the Gospels, it is revealing what Till admits in the process.
First of all, he admits that Christ appears as the risen Christ, worshipped by the women.
Secondly, he admits the existence of the empty tomb, he does not try to refute the fact that the women saw the empty tomb.
None of these facts are questioned in Till's account as unreliable.
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27-03-2003 21:18
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