29-03-2003 12:04									#31
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, that is unfortunate.

	29-03-2003 13:08									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I can't wait till W5 (?) makes it to the mountain 1-4-1 from him. Who knows what we'll find over there too.

BTW, that GCA better move or it'll be a flagrant violation of the treaty which we would not hesitate an instant in pointing it out to them.

	29-03-2003 16:42									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Why the heck did you move BigFree west ?! Now he can see a lot of water, and get out his swimming trunks, but there was a nice mountain range to the south, where we suspect CFC to be....!

I think a little more discussion on this subject would be nice next time!

BigFree, what do you mean by:

quote: Yee Haw!! That is land on the other side.

??
Which side? What land? You mean the western peninsula, right?

EDIT: you probably mean the coastal tile with the fish in it.

EDIT2: Checked with the editor. Fish can occur in both coastal and sea tiles. From the picture, that tile looks like a sea tile with fish in it. There is still no proof of land.

	29-03-2003 17:22									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As in Uber Island in the SPDG, that's a Fish tale that Wbf1 sees. If the CDG warriors does not move to that spot after we move off, they might not see that. That is a coastal tile that we barely see.

[EDITed}

E_T

	30-03-2003 00:18									#35
	Got spare money?

As I recall, we selected Contential: So that should be a different landmass west of the fish.

We can't be sure if it's the other major land mass or a smaller one without a Galley though.

	30-03-2003 02:12									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, it's not something to worry about for quite some time. Right now we need to find CFC.

	30-03-2003 03:12									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Remember we're not sure that there is land over there.

	30-03-2003 03:22									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Remember we're not sure that there is land over there.

I am.

	30-03-2003 04:40									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

So now we know that there is land to the west, either another continent of perhaps a peninsula.

Let me just remind whoever decided to unilateraly move the warrior west we are looking for another civ not another continent.

Please, there are many people on this team who voice opinions and there should be more democratic ways (i.e. polls perhaps) to reach conclusions.

	30-03-2003 13:19									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree with Master Zen. We need to go south!

	30-03-2003 13:28									#41
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've always wanted to go south, but NYE refused and decided to go west instead.

	30-03-2003 14:09									#42
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

It's interesting how a decision made by two consuls and supported by other citizens is being... portrayed as something other than what it was.

I outlined some of the reasoning earlier in this thread. I see vondrack has explained more of it in chat.

Let me ask this of the proponents of South at all costs. How are you convinced that there is anything south, and how do you know where CFC is? They very well could be east, south, or west of GCA. How do you know?

Also, given that Wbf is wounded, given that he is irreplaceable by his position on the map, do you think it is wise to push off into the unknown?

	30-03-2003 17:46									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

::Reads back through the thread::

Seems to me the decision wasn't presumptive or unilateral. There are a few of us here that were pushing for one last westward move that didn't feel the need to restate our opinions.

	30-03-2003 18:14									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Please, there are many people on this team who voice opinions and there should be more democratic ways (i.e. polls perhaps) to reach conclusions.

I'm not sure thats a viable option given the nature of this game where we are expected to be reasonably prompt about playing our turn. We certainely wouldn't want to stop playing for 72 hours to run a poll like in a normal demo game. And if we just stopped for a few hours, its actually not too much different from what was done here (debate in thread & channel).

quote: Let me ask this of the proponents of South at all costs. How are you convinced that there is anything south, and how do you know where CFC is? They very well could be east, south, or west of GCA. How do you know?

I'm pretty sure we'll find the way to CFC south (due to how GCA and CDG acted), though they may very well be to the west or east and only connected (as far as CDC/GCA know at least) by a land bridge to the south. OR its also very possible that they are on another continent that is very narrowly seperated from us by water, and there capital or second city just happens to be on the coast and visible from our continent.

In any case, I think the decision to move west to the coast was a good one. As has been said before, this is likely to be our only scout down here pre-mapmaking, we may as well explore it all. Besides if CFC is south of GCA and on this continent, then its only a matter of time before we have contact anyways. Conspiracy theories about a lurking monster aside, they are most likely trying to explore the continent as well.

	30-03-2003 18:54									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I would think CFC would be W and a bit S of GCA (their starting location). Landmasses don't normally tend to cross the E-W border of the minimap in any significant amount. I would be suprised if there is enough land E or S of GCA for the map generator to have placed another starting location. On standard maps, 12 tiles is the minimum distance between civs setting.

Given our position now, we might as well rest WBF... we aren't going to beat anyone anywhere. GCA's warrior will be ahead of us now. Better to let them have some extra distance if they do head S, so they lose contact with our Warrior.

-----------------

My ideas on scouting are to get your scouts as far away from the starting location as possible. If the goal is to uncover as much territory, get as many huts, and make contacts as fast as possible, the limit of exploration should always be maximized. The gaps can be filled in by later scouts, but later scouts can never extend the limits of scouting themselves.

To give an idea of why it's important, consider WBF's trek so far. We lost a tile on the limit by moving onto the Mountain and then hitting the hut (move W then E). That turn ended up being significant for CDG moving their Warrior out to 'greet us'. They couldn't see WBF in the fog of war, all they saw was the barb Warrior, and were moving to keep it from that hill most likely. That ended up losing us 2 more turns on our limit. Granted that two turn loss was avoidable by other means, but wouldn't have even been an option a turn earlier.

Those turns were very big, as CDG's movement suggest they hadn't made contact with GCA yet. Why would they leave their worker and settler ungaurded just to move next to the borders of a civ they've already met? With our lost 3 tiles back, we could have made contact with GCA first. We also would have been out of CDG territory before they founded their city. Not to mention the possibility that GCA might not have had a Warrior available in the area to track ours with at that time.

Now we're heading S, 3 turns later than we should be, with a GCA 1 turn ahead of us (if they so choose).

	31-03-2003 02:00									#46
	Inflate your Upload Space

It's always clear; hindsight that is!

We cannot always predict the future. Though we can make some educated guesses. If some of those guesses turn out to be true, great, if not we cannot bemoan the situation.

	31-03-2003 02:03									#47
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Aeson My ideas on scouting are to get your scouts as far away from the starting location as possible. If the goal is to uncover as much territory, get as many huts, and make contacts as fast as possible, the limit of exploration should always be maximized. The gaps can be filled in by later scouts, but later scouts can never extend the limits of scouting themselves.

In this game, these gaps cannot be closed in. This is the only scout we will have in the area prior to a war.

Now, going south has to be prioritised, but CFC could be just about anywhere. If we hurry south, but do not find them, the area from which we could find them will very likely be closed off before we return.

So, how should we proceed?

	31-03-2003 05:15									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

BigFree

I just was using it as an example of why I always recommend keeping the limits at a maximum. This isn't hindsight I'm talking about, but how best to make those educated guesses. I have written about the same ideas in the past, and you can look them up through the search option if you want to verify that.

----------------

NYE,

Perfect example of why the limits need to be maximized. 2 turns later and we couldn't have gotten WBF through at all.

As for where we should go, it's gambling. But if we are going somewhere, we might as well get there as quickly as possible. So there's no confusion, that includes healing when necessary... dead units don't go anywhere. If we get where we guess CFC is and they aren't there, we go to the next best option as quickly as possible.

It's pretty clear CFC isn't N (at least where we can get to them, CDG blocking the way). It's also pretty clear that we can't currently go W, and E is where GCA is. S seems to be quite obvious to be our path right now, then W if the option is available.

	31-03-2003 05:30									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, where do we guess CFC is?

South on our land mass? I have my doubts. We have seen 2 types of luxuries so far. There are already 3 civs. Going by the guideline of 1 lux type per civ per land mass, what we have seen points to CFC being across a narrow body of water. I won't say 'evidence', because we have not seen enough to be anywhere near certain, but shouldn't we be guided somewhat by what we can see so far?

	31-03-2003 05:32									#50
	Get a bigger avatar today!

My guess is SE. There could be Luxuries that we have not seen yet.


Dominae

	31-03-2003 05:50									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Aeson, you have probably the best "map sense" of us... that said, I think the move was very defensible (including especially the moment of respite for healing), even considering the lost opportunity to push further out our map knowledge.

What's done is done.

CFC will be found soon enough.

	31-03-2003 05:54									#52
	Increase Your PM Length

I guess roughly W of GCA's starting location (10-15 tiles). Probably a few tiles S of GCA's latitude.

	31-03-2003 10:30									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Aeson I guess roughly W of GCA's starting location (10-15 tiles). Probably a few tiles S of GCA's latitude.

That's what I was 'guessing' too when I made my not-so-infamous map. if you look at it, use your imagination, I mean a LOT of it!


not-so-infamous map