24-03-2003 07:51									#61
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WB -- You have my permission to send it off once we meet them.

--Togas

	25-03-2003 08:13									#62
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Gamecatcher has emailed me. Their email has been posted and forwarded onto Whitebandit. I wrote a brief email back to "lucky" thanking him for writing us, giving him the contact information for Whitebandit, telling him he could contact me if there were any emergencies, and assuring him that WB would be in contact with him very soon.

--Togas

	25-03-2003 08:45									#63
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Well, after reading the Gamecatcher letter, even though it's only a pre-contact thing, I have a couple of things to say.

First of all their attitude seems very relaxed and upbeat: all those smilies are a giveaway, they aren't necessary for any inter-site correspondence so the fact that Lucky has added many of them goes to show...

Also, can you imagine a guy called Lucky being a malevolent treacherous liar? I can't.

Now I wonder... have they met CDG yet? What's their attitude towards them? Hard to tell by this letter. I'd say very most likely yes. I think CDG realizes we are more of a threat than they are and probably had a different attitude towards GCA than with us. Hence, perhaps GCA does not yet realize the true nature of CDG...

but like Dennis Miller sez: I could be wrong

	25-03-2003 11:00									#64
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Hehe, he sounds like my kind of guy.

Make sure we send this out as soon as we can. Important things to figure out is what techs they have, what they're researching, their stance with CDG and any possible trade deals they have.

Remember, do not show them that we are in any way at odds with CDG. From what I've seen in the PTW DG (especially now as Historian) the best place to be is completely neutral with everyone. The moment we allude to the fact that CDG and we are not on the greatest terms, that puts GCA at a diplomatic advantage, and we also cannot be assured of the fact that GCA won't inform CDG of this. More often than not, informations flows more freely than one wishes...

	25-03-2003 11:18									#65
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I can only strongly reinforce what Trip just said.

Information is more golden than gold. Hoard it, and share it with none who have not proven their worth.

The role of the ambassador is to present our position and desires as we deem fit to convey. It is not to answer questions simply because they are asked.

It is also better to keep channels clear of noise.

	25-03-2003 11:31									#66
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Alright, I replied in the correspondance thread with my reply. It is just a greeting mail and focuses on contact info as contact between our two nations hasn't "officially" been established yet, so we cannot really communicate with each other.

We'll have to wait until one of us is able to make contact before we can get "down and dirty" so to speak. But my immediate impression of them seems to be rather good and at the moment they do not sound too bad. The only thing that throws me off is the "respect our borders" bit, but hopefully that is all they mean (i.e, instead of UNCLAIMED LAND, ahem.)

	25-03-2003 11:35									#67
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Lucky is a very good player. One of the best from the GOTM community. He's a nice guy, and seems to play mainly for the fun of it.

	25-03-2003 23:52									#68
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The current proposal looks pretty good. I'm skeptical about imparting GCA with knowledge of all the techs we have, but they'll probably find out either way, and this way we can probably get any possible trade deals done ASAP.

Also, I think we should ask their impression of CDG. We need to know where we stand.

	26-03-2003 01:47									#69
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draft:

Non-Agression Pact between Apolyton and GCA:

In the interest of peace and future cooperation, to ensure our security and friendship, the nations of Apolyton and The Gamecatcher Alliance hereby agree to the following:

There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter or come within 1 tile of the cultural borders of the other party without permission. Nor shall our units interfere with the travel and movement of each other outside of these borders. This shall be considered a Non-Aggression Pact.

This agreement shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. This agreement shall be open for renegotiation after 25 turns have passed.

--Togas

	26-03-2003 01:53									#70
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Simple and to the point.

I like it.

	26-03-2003 02:29									#71
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Alright, they also would like a science agreement.

This is the proposal they are currently looking at.

We would research Warrior Code and The Wheel in exchange for Writing. This seems to be a fairly crappy deal in a way, but the tech value is Wheel (4), WC (3), Writing (8). So we would technically come out "ahead" and would have our archers, but we would lack the knowledge of iron, which is what CDG is sure to possess.

Anyways, discuss this. Think there is a better deal we can offer them? Let me know.

	26-03-2003 03:14									#72
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We need to talk with CDG again about IW before we commit to something like this. Perhaps WC + Wheel for IW?

	26-03-2003 03:20									#73
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Trip's got a point, though I do think that the moment we get BW we are pretty much more able to counter any "moves" by an iron-wielding CDG.

WC+Wheel for IW sounds good to me, are we doing 2 unilateral deals here? I was thinking of doing a 3-way deal but perhaps by itself, two treaties (and assuming that CDG and GCA will also trade) might make "the tech market" move by itself.

	26-03-2003 03:21									#74
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GCA has let it be known to us that CFC (Chinese) are on our land mass as well.

quote: [13:04] anarchy: YOu guys dont have any ideas where CFC is in relation to us in the game? [13:04] WhiteBandit: Location wise? [13:04] anarchy: yeah [13:05] WhiteBandit: Lucky - So we would be trading you WC, Wheel, HB then if we went that route right? [13:05] WhiteBandit: What would you guys be willing to go toward? [13:05] WhiteBandit: anarchy - yeah we know where they are [13:06] anarchy: Really? :mischief: [13:06] anarchy: [13:06] WhiteBandit: Hehe, what is wrong with that? [13:06] Togas_at_work: No highlight set. I'd rather work in peace [13:06] Eklektikos: sensible [13:06] WhiteBandit: Togas - understandable [13:06] Lucky: did you spy them or is our island even bigger than expected [13:07] Lucky: :mischief: [13:07] WhiteBandit: Nope, no spying [13:08] Lucky: hmm, then it means we are even more than 3 civs on this island :ack: [13:08] Lucky: getting a little crowded I´d say [13:08] WhiteBandit: We actually thought it was an island and we came across CDG. We thought that it ended south of them, but we came on a hill and saw your borders. [13:08] WhiteBandit: So now we're not sure what to think about how far it goes [13:09] anarchy: We COULD be on a continent?

It also sounds as if there is more than one way to reach CFC. They made it sound like we either saw them over a body of water or we marched into them. I'm guessing that there's a landbridge or two that connects to CFC.

edit-spelling

	26-03-2003 03:26									#75
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How does that mean that CFC is on our continent?

WB mistakenly spoke of CDG as though they were CFC (getting acronyms mixed up). I don't know what GCA said that led you to believe that CFC is on our continent.

	26-03-2003 03:43									#76
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Thumbs up to the non-agression pact with GCA.

quote: but we would lack the knowledge of iron, which is what CDG is sure to possess.

This part about the science plan worries me a bit though. Its ussually not a good thing if your civ is the last in the neihborhood to get a resource revealing tech.

	26-03-2003 03:45									#77
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1) Get Non-Agg signed. This will take away the possible threat of warfare if we don't move BigFree home immediately.

2) Continue work on a tech deal that Apolyton accepts. I'm unsure this deal will work unless we can parlay those techs into a separate deal with CDG (I have asked Big Free to inquire about such a deal).

3) These guys are not all that mature. More of a "high school" mentality. Very casual, joking. We would do well to be buddy-buddy with them, joke a lot, and lay off the thick formalities.

4) Let's not worry about their recent trade with CDG. It was likely motivated by CDG's desire to beat us to the trade. Now that they've "beat us" we can slink back into the jungle, build up, stay at peace and let their close proximity cause headaches, distrust, and frustration. We should not instigate this, we need to let it happen.

--Togas

	26-03-2003 04:37									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Trip How does that mean that CFC is on our continent? WB mistakenly spoke of CDG as though they were CFC (getting acronyms mixed up). I don't know what GCA said that led you to believe that CFC is on our continent.

quote: [13:04] anarchy: YOu guys dont have any ideas where CFC is in relation to us in the game? [13:04] WhiteBandit: Location wise? [13:04] anarchy: yeah

Here is Anarchy asking if we've had contact or know the whereabouts of CFC. WB might have been confused as to which Civ he was refering to but I don't think both of them meant CDG! Anarchy already clearly knows we have had contact with CDG.

quote: [13:05] WhiteBandit: anarchy - yeah we know where they are [13:06] anarchy: Really? :mischief: [13:06] WhiteBandit: Hehe, what is wrong with that?

Here WB is confused a little by the acronyms and thinks that Anarchy is talking about CDG. Anarchy expresses surprise that we'd know of CFC. WB, confirming the confusion, says what's wrong with us knowing that?(why the surprise?)

quote: [13:06] Lucky: did you spy them or is our island even bigger than expected [13:07] Lucky: :mischief: [13:07] WhiteBandit: Nope, no spying

This is where Lucky is refering to our either running into them, or 'spying' them (maybe seeing their borders.)
And WB counters that we weren't spying; we saw (he still thinks CDG) them through 'normal' scouting procedures.

quote: [13:08] Lucky: hmm, then it means we are even more than 3 civs on this island :ack: [13:08] Lucky: getting a little crowded I´d say

This is where Lucky realizes the gaff by Anarchy and tries to play it off a bit.

quote: [13:08] WhiteBandit: We actually thought it was an island and we came across CDG. We thought that it ended south of them, but we came on a hill and saw your borders. [13:08] WhiteBandit: So now we're not sure what to think about how far it goes [13:09] anarchy: We COULD be on a continent?

Anarchy is now aware of his previous gaff of even mentioning CFC. He should have just asked if we've seen any othe Civ. But, instead, he mentioned CFC specifically; and then he expresses surprise when told that we have 'seen' them too!

It may be considered a reach by some, but I think it is not a very far reach at all. It would not hurt us to go on this assumption.

	26-03-2003 04:41									#79
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I think WB said this, but both GCA and CDG hate CFC, and want a shot at blasting them. That's why they ask about CFC. Anarchy just wondered if we knew where they were, and WB answering "yes" made them curious. I don't see the big indication that leads you to believe they have contact with CFC.
As I said, GCA and CDG have an obsession for CFC, so naturally they would ask some joking questions about them.

	26-03-2003 04:42									#80
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I think that you are wrong on this one Trip; you know I don't always agree with you!

And if CFC is indeed on our landmass, then we are blessed to have the hatred between these teams!

	26-03-2003 04:45									#81
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Then again...

quote: [16:40] * USC_Lucky has joined #civfanatics [16:40] gunning1: hi [16:41] CivGeneral: (gun) [16:41] CivGeneral: HOla Lucky [16:41] Chieftess: hi lucky [16:41] CivGeneral: Hola Lucky [16:41] USC_Lucky: hi [16:42] Goonie: Lucky!!!!! [16:42] gunning1: no no no [16:42] gunning1: LUCKY!!!!! [16:42] gunning1: [16:42] Goonie: Lucky Go to #demogame_CFC_Embassy [16:43] USC_Lucky: why should I? [16:43] Chieftess: embassy [16:43] USC_Lucky: could you shorten that name a little :roll: [16:44] Goonie: Lucky just please go and look for future reference [16:44] * USC_Lucky has left #civfanatics

Either they have contact or they're cheating.

	26-03-2003 05:01									#82
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Well, if they're cheating, then things are off to a wonderful start for all teams But, reading through the chat, I was given the impression that they have met CFC in the game. And reading the little exchange between Lucky and Goonie, looks like CFC doesn't have very much patience in dealing with them. If that's the case, all the better for us. If all the animosity that's out there (from what I hear) between those sites holds true, that just means less focus on us in the near future...

	26-03-2003 05:05									#83
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I would personally guess that they both have contact and both want to keep us from having contact with them as well. Why else all the worry about our scouting? Its pretty transparent if you ask me. GCA immediately indicated their desire to keep us at least 1 tile away from their border without permission. Citing that it'd help them feel less threatened is good and all, but there's at least an equally good chance that there is more to it than that.

	26-03-2003 05:13									#84
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This is my very sad drawing of what I think out landmass may roughly (very, very rough) look like.



Please, no laughing, especially Trip!

	26-03-2003 05:18									#85
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quote: UPDATE: Kentonio (from CDG) met us in chat and passed on this "message" from GCA: "they are aware you are coming to say hi and are ready to recieve you, they want you to know tho that they will not permit any further movement to the south. They consider it tresspassing and will not allow it and... "our troops are to the sw of that hill. we will be founding a city there in 2 turns. GC ask you to go south from that hill and they will meet you. We have no problems with your troops being inside that new city radius for a turn or two to facillitate that meeting" Truth of fiction (most likely some truth to this) we have another "tresspass" issue to deal with and the problem of limited scouting doesn't seem to be going away.

Actually this also leads me to believe that the two civs are conspiring to keep us from going further south and that the cause is to prevent our contacting CFC (and possibly other civs).

Consider this:
1) CDG was hyper paranoid about our going south and even lied about it.
2) Once they learned we knew about GCA, they helped us contact them but relayed to us that GCA would permit no further movement south.
3) GCA's first concern is about borders and even requests us to stay 1 tile away to ease tensions.
4) GCA is immediately interested in who else we have contact with, specifically CFC and when we slip up and say we do have contact, they are surprised.
5) CDG founds its 2nd city in a less than great site, which (I at least) can only see one of three purposes for: To keep GCA in, to keep us out, or to claim a resource.

	26-03-2003 06:07									#86
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Togas - regarding the draft of the NAP proposal, may I send that to them as soong as possible?

	26-03-2003 06:43									#87
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WB -- Sent it off ASAP.

--Togas

	26-03-2003 06:56									#88
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Togas,

Talking with BigFree, we were joking about my mix up of all these acronymns. I got to thinking this might be for the best though. With your approval, the next time we are talking to GCA about tech deals, can I somehow slip in "What kind of tech deal are you doing with CFC?"

Mixing up that CFC to actually mean CDG of course We would have to insert that at the right time, but that might give us a conclusive answer as to whether they have contact with CFC or not.

Edit: Correspondance thread updated to reflect a chat I had with Lucky a few minutes ago. Don't worry, none of this post came into play.

Last edited by WhiteBandit on 26-03-2003 at 07:10

	26-03-2003 07:22									#89
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BF: I think it's more like Trip's map here. CFC is probably to the South, that's why anarchy was surprised that we had seen them. BTW, before seeing the brief CFC-GCA meeting Trip posted above I thoiught anarchy was just curious whether CFC might be on this continent and we might have run into them, but now it is clear they have met.

	26-03-2003 07:26									#90
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CFC and GCA have contact, it's confirmed. This is a message I picked up from idling in the GCA chatroom:

quote: [18:25] OctavianX: Lucky, we've made contact, and I'd like to start an embassy thead, but the forum says my account is inactive. Can I get that fixed?

OctavianX is the president of the CFC DG team.

That means CFC is on our continent somewhere. Probably south.