29-03-2003 01:17									#31
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What I would do right here is to blow few mosques and blaim it on the coalition. Make it really look like it. They will of course deny it, but this will get some of that attention they need from Arab world. Make it look to them like this really is a war against Islam. Dig up some old bodies and throw them in there, then claim these are the victims, they were only praying. Things like that..

	29-03-2003 01:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So a question goes to those that think Hussein is doing what is required, even if it means hiding as Civilians. What will be your opinion when Coalition Command decides enough is enough, and is less discriminate in their fire?

People who support the war will see it as necessary to win while those that oppose the war will be more vehement in their opposition. Civilain casualties were inevitable from the outset. The scale are mostly determined by how the iraqis choose to fight.

	29-03-2003 02:58									#33
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quote: What will be your opinion when Coalition Command decides enough is enough, and is less discriminate in their fire?

Murder, pure and simple.

	29-03-2003 03:01									#34
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Exactly, by Hussein, David.

	29-03-2003 03:08									#35
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What did you expect them to do sloww? you have kept saying how this regime must be overthrown cause it is evil: then it acts evilly and you act as if that came out of the blue?..

This is an authoritarian reghime fighting for its existence against an overwhelming enemy. They have never cared about the lives of Iraqis before, and they won't now. Interestingly, they have failed to take many acts that would jhave made progress for the Us far more difficult while really makign the lives of Iraqis hell, acts such as blowing up damns, oil installations and all the bridges. And still no use of WMD's.

We should have expected these sorts of acts form the start.

	29-03-2003 03:10									#36
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quote: Exactly, by Hussein, David.

Yes, because US indiscriminate arty fire into cities is obviously Saddam's fault

	29-03-2003 03:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Murder, pure and simple.

The debateable part of Slow's comment comes when we deal with Saddamites using human shields to protect a position they are firing at us from. Who would be guilty of the war crime when we take such a position out? The coalition or the Iraqi Army?

	29-03-2003 03:19									#38
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You are full of crap, and in the wrong thread.

If you want to pouty mouth about Coalition troops, take it to the pertinent thread.
Your even being so confused over your need to post in this thread, illustrates why you have problems comprehending the war.

GePap, overwhelming enemy or not, too badola.
Hussein had/has a chance to leave.

You want to take the same position as David, then go with David.

	29-03-2003 03:22									#39
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rules of war are very necessary and are in general adhered to(to varying degrees). wars aren't genocide contests. if u ceased to have rules and simply acted completely amorally u r putting urself at more risk.

as long as surrender is an option rules will always be of practical use.

	29-03-2003 03:28									#40
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Game, set, match, yavoon.

	29-03-2003 03:59									#41
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Thus far, Iraqi tactics are worse than useless.

Attempts at deception and terror have led to ZERO sucesses on the battlefield, few allied casualties, and massive losses among the Iraqi hardcore.

A wasted effort, that only compunds the view of the Iraqi regime as criminals.

The current attempts to force non-combats on to the battlefield serve only to harden the civillian population against the regime.

Iraq is losing this war every way possible, except of course for those who think the loss of a tank or a helicopter is somehow a major blow to a giant coalition army, and such people are only fooling themselves anyway.

	29-03-2003 04:27									#42
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I wouldn't say useless Chris. Saddam's only hope is to make the war long, and the paramilitaries are slowing the coalition down.

Sure, he won't make it out of this alive, but I'll bet dollars to dimes that before going down he'll do his utmost to make the US look bad to other Arab countries, which is an achievable goal.

	29-03-2003 04:30									#43
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This is a ar for hearts and minds: no mater how many tanks we don't loose, or vehicles they loose, if they win that battle this war was a failure.

The longer this goes the more prestige the Us looses, the more anit-Americanism is allowed to fester, and the harder the already difficult aftermath becomes.

No one thnks Iraq can achieve military victor. The question is how badly can they screw up our "we are welcomed liberators" message.

	29-03-2003 07:21									#44
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The US seems to already be taking a beating in the PR war at home, given the tone of today's press conferences - particularly the one with Ari Flescher. Some of those reporters were ruthless with questions like "why won't this administration just admit that the opposition is tougher than expected?"

It doesn't matter what is or isn't practical or what reasonable military people expect the war to be. It was sold to the average American that it would be quick, easy and Iraqis would be dancing in the streets every time the US "liberated" a settlement.

Of course, all of this says nothing of the reaction on the Arab street, which is less than fantastic....

	29-03-2003 07:28									#45
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Funny how the US won the war of Independence mostly by 'cheating' and now they're crying about the Iraqis doing the same kind of thing...

Aw Boo Hoo!

One tactic I'll be interested in seeing the conclusion of is Iraq's own acceptance that Baghdad will be surrounded in 5-10 days (4-9 days now)...

They're psyching the coalition out - if they can hold out longer before encirclement, they can declare that a victory as well...

They're goading the coalition and with good reason as the US has woefully underestimated the progress of this war - it is astounding just how out of touch with reality their assumptions have been so far...

	29-03-2003 07:35									#46
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The Iraqis actually claimed that they had shot down 196 cruise missiles on the 27th. Even if they were counting each missile twice... once from the left, once from the right... thats still 98 cruise missiles knocked out of the sky when the Iraqi's aren't turning on any air defense radars.

Any numeric claim of victory or casualty for Iraq is frankly not believable.

Thats not to say that everything the allies say is a lie. Just that you can tell that the Iraqis (or by all accounts Al Jazeera) are lying by the fact that their lips are moving.

	29-03-2003 07:37									#47
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Is there an international rule that says soldiers must wear uniform? I know dressing soldiers in civilian clothes is generally regarded as morally questionable, and I can see that, but is there a law that states that have to be in uniform? What if some of the Iraqi non-uniformed fighters are civilians who happen to have a gun and want to fight, as opposed to paid members of the military. I'm not disputing that this doesn't make them targets to be fired at, if they're firing, they obviously are, but is it then wrong for them to be in civilian clothes?

	29-03-2003 07:38									#48
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Kontiki: Actually, the support numbers (president, war) haven't budged one bit. The American people drastically reassessed how long it would take, but this hasn't seemed to impact views on the competence of the team or the necessity of prosecuting the war.

	29-03-2003 07:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Is there an international rule that says soldiers must wear uniform? I know dressing soldiers in civilian clothes is generally regarded as morally questionable, and I can see that, but is there a law that states that have to be in uniform? What if some of the Iraqi non-uniformed fighters are civilians who happen to have a gun and want to fight, as opposed to paid members of the military. I'm not disputing that this doesn't make them targets to be fired at, if they're firing, they obviously are, but is it then wrong for them to be in civilian clothes?

Yes, the Geneva Convention states that they have to diferentiate themselves from civilians... to protect civilians. If a civilian independently acts... he could fight (but the opposing force can still shoot and kill him in self defense)... but if he organises with others, he is illegally acting.

Soldiers violating this aren't due the benefits of POWs, but we are being nice and not shooting these cowards on sight.

Oh... and if the Iraqi's use human shields and we shoot them... we aren't liable for that... the Iraqis are, according to the G.C. too.

	29-03-2003 07:46									#50
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No, the numbers haven't moved yet, but I'm willing to bet that you will start to see some decline if things aren't stepped up quickly (not that they necessarily can be, I'm just saying for expectations' sake). One of the biggest factors, IMO, is the reaction of the Iraqi people themselves. So far, I have seen little in the US media about this, but in Canada, we get many more reports that the US invasion isn't as popular as the US admin would have us believe. This isn't because Saddam is loved, but rather that the Iraqis:

A) Have been brought up to hate the US and

B) Are a little wary in general of being "liberated" from Saddam by being invaded.

A little off topic, but we in the west can take a somewhat callous view that while the US/UK are doing everything in their power to minimize Iraqi civilian casualties and that a few hundred is a small price to pay for getting rid of Saddam, it's a little different when someone in your family or one of your friends has been killed by mistake from the coalition. It doesn't exactly inspire a sense of love for your "liberators".

edit: fixed grammar

	29-03-2003 07:56									#51
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You probably haven't seen this discussion because you just haven't focused on American media. The subject has been covered heavily. To those points, it is added...

C) The US encouraged an uprising in '91 but then left them in the lurch (once bitten twice shy);

D) There is a general anarchy going on;

E) Fear of what Saddam's men will do to them on expression of any joy; and

F) They don't know who will win yet. Yes, I know that this seems silly to us, but is not so silly to them.

	29-03-2003 08:00									#52
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I don't think your last point seems silly at all. Only obtuse people can't see that the world doesn't work on simple black or white, good or evil principles.

	29-03-2003 08:03									#53
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Yes, but the US will win. That is a definite.

	29-03-2003 08:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You probably haven't seen this discussion because you just haven't focused on American media. The subject has been covered heavily. To those points, it is added... C) The US encouraged an uprising in '91 but then left them in the lurch (once bitten twice shy); D) There is a general anarchy going on; E) Fear of what Saddam's men will do to them on expression of any joy; and F) They don't know who will win yet. Yes, I know that this seems silly to us, but is not so silly to them.

Actually I would find it laughable that the World's only superpower is relying on Iraqi civilians to endanger their lives after being so terribly shafted in '91, if it weren't so pathetic...

We supposed to be saving them - not vice versa!

It is interesting to see the US is also using the Peshmerga to do their dirty work for them in the North - just waiting for that day when they tell the Kurds to give up their independence...

	29-03-2003 08:05									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Funny how the US won the war of Independence mostly by 'cheating' and now they're crying about the Iraqis doing the same kind of thing... Aw Boo Hoo!

The concept of even taking prisoners in the 1700's was still a tad iffy, unless you needed labor or the prisoners might be worth something in ransom. If you want a nice, slightly later example, how about Wellington's army's handling of Reille's Corps after Waterloo?

The standards were a bit different then, old chap. Remember, you guys loaded that village into the church and burned them all alive?

Besides, we didn't have an army, we were just a bunch of rebellious colonials, and we didn't use our women and children as shields.

So boo hoo to you too.

	29-03-2003 08:09									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Actually I would find it laughable that the World's only superpower is relying on Iraqi civilians to endanger their lives after being so terribly shafted in '91, if it weren't so pathetic... We supposed to be saving them - not vice versa! It is interesting to see the US is also using the Peshmerga to do their dirty work for them in the North - just waiting for that day when they tell the Kurds to give up their independence...

We're not relying on it, we'd just find it convenient, and it would result in less of them getting killed.

	29-03-2003 08:10									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yes, but the US will win. That is a definite.

Again, not to the people of Iraq.

	29-03-2003 08:15									#58
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I have to repeat, the Iraqi tactics are totally useless.

As for winning the PR war, that's even more laughable.

Only the usual "hate the US" bashers think the coalition is losing, and as usual, their simple minds can't comprehend military tactics, so they seek archaic examples that have no bearing on the modern world.

Such fools spew on at length about concepts they can't understand, while presenting as evidence centuries old examples of wars long over, fought in eras with different rules and different concepts.

A better cross section of the PR war would be to listen to the Iraqi people, who can't wait to be rid of Saddam, rather than some fool who thinks the US is happily carpet bombing everything in sight.

BTW, the government and the US Army never said it would be a fast war, the PRESS said that.

	29-03-2003 08:21									#59
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Actually, Yank, Little Red Rummy Hood and the Big Bad Wolfowitz have made quite a few statements alluding to their timeline.

It's true that CentCom and JCS and any of the professionals never said it would be quick, but the think tank and cocktail circuit crap came from the would be stars of the show themselves - same with the "shock and awe" crap.

edit - BTW "you people" killed my logon and email over at FFZ.

	29-03-2003 08:26									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I have to repeat, the Iraqi tactics are totally useless. As for winning the PR war, that's even more laughable. Only the usual "hate the US" bashers think the coalition is losing, and as usual, their simple minds can't comprehend military tactics, so they seek archaic examples that have no bearing on the modern world. Such fools spew on at length about concepts they can't understand, while presenting as evidence centuries old examples of wars long over, fought in eras with different rules and different concepts. A better cross section of the PR war would be to listen to the Iraqi people, who can't wait to be rid of Saddam, rather than some fool who thinks the US is happily carpet bombing everything in sight. BTW, the government and the US Army never said it would be a fast war, the PRESS said that.

I don't know why I bother responding to you, but I feel compelled due to some major errors in your post.

A) I don't think anyone is actually claiming that Iraq is winning or will win the military conflict. There are other issues, though, and that's what's being discussed here.

B) It doesn't matter what the US government or Army says, it ONLY matters what the press says since that's where the vast, vast majority of Americans get their information. As far as the most of the US public was concerned, via the press, it was going to be quick and easy. Rumsfeld can make counterclaims until he is blue in the face, it doesn't change the perception, which is what a PR war is all about.

C) Perhaps you should listen to the Iraqi people instead of the administration here. I know of several reputable news organizations, including ABC, BBC, CBC and others that have spoken to ordinary Iraqis and they aren't necessarily thrilled with the invasion, for the very reasons that myself and DanS have been posting.