29-03-2003 08:27									#61
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Rummy likes to shoot his mouth off to much.

Try the logon now.

	29-03-2003 08:31									#62
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Remember Reb, your just MtG there, not MichealtheGreat. I think Bloomy killed all the FFZ e-mails.

Navy misses you, BTW.

	29-03-2003 08:42									#63
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Navy should start posting here again.

Kontiki: Please note that everything I mentioned was temporary. It could peel away very quickly, and I expect that it will, if we don't have to shoot up the place too badly. Umm Qasr is a case-in-point.

	29-03-2003 08:44									#64
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I had one of each there - MtG had admin privs, MichaeltheGreat had regular user privs, so I could check out forum access rules.

I've gotta head south, then I'll check in over there.

	29-03-2003 08:47									#65
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Better hurry, Claudia is p1ssed.

Dan, why not pay us a visit?

Give you a break from this lot.

	29-03-2003 09:05									#66
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not pissed. just matter of dinner sooner or dinner later.
or no dinner
:P

	29-03-2003 11:28									#67
	Another Devious Iraqi Tactic Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080812/

quote: Iraqis are giving passing Americans the "thumbs up" sign, which the troops interpret as a symbol of support. But many veteran travelers insist that the gesture is a crass Middle Eastern insult. How should coalition forces take those skyward thumbs? Depends on how media savvy those Iraqi bystanders may be. It's true that "thumbs up" traditionally translates as the foulest of Iraqi insults—the most straightforward interpretation is "Up yours, pal!" The sign has a similarly pejorative meaning in parts of West Africa, Russia, Australia, Iran, Greece, and Sardinia, according to Roger E. Axtell's book Gestures: The Do's and Taboos of Body Language Around the World. So, it's possible that the ostensibly cheering Iraqis are, in fact, silently voicing their displeasure. But it's also possible that they understand the Western meaning of upturned thumbs, an explanation that the Army's Defense Language Institute subscribes to. According to a recent DLI manual on international gestures, after the first Gulf War "Middle Easterners of the Arabian Peninsula adopted this hand movement, along with the OK sign, as a symbol of cooperation toward freedom." Iraqi civilians may have noted this shifting meaning, perhaps via TV reports.

	29-03-2003 11:39									#68
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The best thing is that can claim whichever meaning is convenient, at the time.

	29-03-2003 12:07									#69
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"But I was giving you a thumbs-up, Mr. American Capitalist Pig-Dog! Aaargh!"

	29-03-2003 16:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko It seems that troops undertaking such tactics don't necessarily qualify for POW status, but otherwise it's a legitimate tactic for a defending guerrilla force.

Yup. These tactics aren't much different from things Special Forces do. A lot of stuff the SAS/SBS (probably the US Special Forces) did is quite unspeakable.

	29-03-2003 16:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I have to repeat, the Iraqi tactics are totally useless. As for winning the PR war, that's even more laughable. Only the usual "hate the US" bashers think the coalition is losing, and as usual, their simple minds can't comprehend military tactics, so they seek archaic examples that have no bearing on the modern world. Such fools spew on at length about concepts they can't understand, while presenting as evidence centuries old examples of wars long over, fought in eras with different rules and different concepts. A better cross section of the PR war would be to listen to the Iraqi people, who can't wait to be rid of Saddam, rather than some fool who thinks the US is happily carpet bombing everything in sight. BTW, the government and the US Army never said it would be a fast war, the PRESS said that.

As far as this replies to my post...

The Arab street is not taking this war well, Chris. Really.

	29-03-2003 16:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Thus far, Iraqi tactics are worse than useless.

Well, your view is countered by William Wallace, who said in an interview that they (the Iraqis) are fighting completely differently than previously imagined.

That can only be effective - throwing your enemy into chaos.

	30-03-2003 03:39									#73
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What are the loss rates?

What have the Iraqis suceeded in doing?

As for the "arab world" not taking it well, I heard the same tune in Afghanistan.

Didn't seem to matter there, either.

Listen to what the exiles say, and the Iraqi liberated say, it's a lot different from what Al Jeezeera says.

	30-03-2003 04:27									#74
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This isn't quite the same as Afghanistan Chris. Apart from the news articles available, this thread on the SDMB is quite informative.

As for the exiled Iraqis, they aren't exactly the most unified group, and that's reflected in their stances towards this war as well. I've seen or read both pro- and anti-war interviews of exiled Iraqis.

And in Iraq, it's still too early to make a judgment. Suffice to say, hatred of Saddam does not necessarily (or even likely) correlate with being pro-American.

	30-03-2003 04:33									#75
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Why don't we wait until the real fighting starts - in Bagdhad and Tikrit.

Anyway, the US will probably manage to oust the Baath regime, but I'll bet that's about when the real fun will start.

	30-03-2003 04:44									#76
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I read somewhere that Iraqi officers have been in close contact with Serbia to learn how they fooled the USAF with fake plywood tanks. The best way to counter a smart bomb is to be where it isn't. Does anyone know if the Iraqis have used fake targets? Not that there is much wood around to produce such fakes, but they could have imported it.

OK, the T-55 and T-72 are about as useful as plywood tanks against Abrams (or whatever you call'em), but they would still be useful against infantry, right?

	30-03-2003 04:46									#77
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Yeah but if you can get behind an Abrams they aren't too hard to immoblise.

	30-03-2003 04:50									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yeah but if you can get behind an Abrams they aren't too hard to immoblise.

Is there any official stats on Abrams lost in action in this war? I heard rumours that some American tanks were lost when a temporary bridge was hit by Iraqi artillery, but no confirmed losses.

	30-03-2003 04:57									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why don't we wait until the real fighting starts - in Bagdhad and Tikrit. Anyway, the US will probably manage to oust the Baath regime, but I'll bet that's about when the real fun will start.

I like the way you try to calm down the speculation, then start speculating in the very next sentence.

Surely you realise that every armchair general has a firm grasp on how the war should be fought, on both sides. In fact, sometimes I wonder why the incompetents planning wars today won't just call us to get a foolproof plan.

	30-03-2003 06:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Is there any official stats on Abrams lost in action in this war? I heard rumours that some American tanks were lost when a temporary bridge was hit by Iraqi artillery, but no confirmed losses.

Five M1's lost so far, one abandoned due to collapse of a bridge under the weight of the Abrams, two others in the south were some sort of accidental loss, two belonging to 3 ID were mobility killed by RPG hits on side, blowing off tracks. The two combat losses were without fatalities.

	30-03-2003 06:11									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I read somewhere that Iraqi officers have been in close contact with Serbia to learn how they fooled the USAF with fake plywood tanks. The best way to counter a smart bomb is to be where it isn't. Does anyone know if the Iraqis have used fake targets? Not that there is much wood around to produce such fakes, but they could have imported it. OK, the T-55 and T-72 are about as useful as plywood tanks against Abrams (or whatever you call'em), but they would still be useful against infantry, right?

Bradleys outmatch them, so they'd have to hit a softskin vehicle convoy or light infantry to do any real damage. Of course, they still have to live long enough and be able to move to find those kind of soft targets, but oh well.

	30-03-2003 06:15									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yup. These tactics aren't much different from things Special Forces do. A lot of stuff the SAS/SBS (probably the US Special Forces) did is quite unspeakable.

Oh really? Is it unspeakable because you have no idea what it is, you're just trying to pull a "both sides do it, so the poor peace-loving Iraqis aren't being bad," or is it unspeakable because you have specific examples to site that don't come from Saddam's independent news media? It was pretty nasty when we took out that Baby Milk Plant^TM too.

	30-03-2003 06:22									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat ...so the poor peace-loving Iraqis aren't being bad ...

The Iraqi's aren't exactly peace-loving. Your supply convoys have probably found that out by now...

	30-03-2003 08:07									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Oh really? Is it unspeakable because you have no idea what it is, you're just trying to pull a "both sides do it, so the poor peace-loving Iraqis aren't being bad," or is it unspeakable because you have specific examples to site that don't come from Saddam's independent news media?

What's this, a false dilemma? I thought you'd use plenty of examples instead.

	30-03-2003 08:21									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What's this, a false dilemma? I thought you'd use plenty of examples instead.

Apparently it's a false dilemma, since I was hoping you'd cite some examples of the SAS/SBS "unspeakable things" done during this war?

	30-03-2003 08:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre The Iraqi's aren't exactly peace-loving. Your supply convoys have probably found that out by now...

Since we've got all of a Marine regiment pretty much taking effective control of a city of about half a million, it wouldn't appear that resistance is that widespread among the Iraqi people.

	30-03-2003 08:25									#87
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Apparently it's a false dilemma, since I was hoping you'd cite some examples of the SAS/SBS "unspeakable things" done during this war?

But then they wouldn't be unspeakable.

	30-03-2003 09:22									#88
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I would like to talk about the battle for hearts and minds that is being waged through the media. The immediate Iraqi objective is to convince their own people that Saddam is there for the long haul, to embolden loyal supporters and to convince dissedents that resistance will be put down. These irregular troops are as much media tools as they are militiary assetts. The second, longer term objective is to convince citizens of the coalition that the war is going badly. The aim here is to facilitate the withdrawal of US troops as was done in Vietnam and Somalia. Obviously, the coalition effort is aimed at the exact opposite goal.

It strikes me that Saddams regime has the upperhand in this sphere of the conflict. The free press can be analytical and critical. (this is a good thing though ) The stories are often presented in a way that reflects more on the personal opinion of different news editors than their governments view. This is how they make their money. It is popular to be radical and to take pops at authority figures (I know I loved it when I got one over my teachers when I was at school)

However, the Iraqis have been subjected to state run media for the last 30 years. They are told how to think. It presents a sugar coated view of Saddams regime while containing menacing undertones of the fate of dissidents. Not usually blatantly obvious, but full of nasty little suggestions. Iraqi media no doubt plays a multitude of foreign news clips that show only anti war demonstrations and arab adulation of saddam.

So you see, the Iraqi propaganda machine has the power to reach its own people and the people of the US/UK etc. Western media on the other hand has very little effect on the Iraqis and huge power over the people of its own area.

	30-03-2003 09:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Five M1's lost so far, one abandoned due to collapse of a bridge under the weight of the Abrams, two others in the south were some sort of accidental loss, two belonging to 3 ID were mobility killed by RPG hits on side, blowing off tracks. The two combat losses were without fatalities.

I saw pictures of three that had actually been immoblised. By RPG hits to the rear of the track mechanism. IIRC these were Iraqi pics. Apparently this is about the Abrams only weakness.

I'm guessing a few more have gone and that the "accidental" losses were no such thing. Typical spin. Then again - that's a pretty good kill/loss rate if the numbers of Iraqi casualties are to be believed.

	30-03-2003 14:10									#90
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Accidental losses aren't that uncommon - the Abrams is too heavy to be towed out of real soft ground if it gets bogged, and if you throw a track in soft ground, it can be unrecoverable on ground where it could otherwise be recovered if the tracks were on.

The ability to tow a 69 ton vehicle out of sticky ground isn't trivial, and nobody is going to let the fate of one stuck tank dictate the pace of operations, so sometimes, you just say "**** it, let's blow the thing and move on"