29-03-2003 14:28									#61
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quote: Well Israel claims to be a liberal westernized democracy. So shouldn't we hold you to a higher standard than the tin-pot dictatorships that surround you?

"They're evil, so let's cut them some slack"?

quote: That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while!

LOL all you want, but it is true.

	29-03-2003 15:41									#62
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Well Israel claims to be a liberal westernized democracy. So shouldn't we hold you to a higher standard than the tin-pot dictatorships that surround you?

So that the tin-pot dictatorships don't gain a competitive advantage and end up being the only survivors of the era.

	29-03-2003 15:44									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If Iran invaded with all their might right now, I'd probably laugh my ass off. That would put the nail in the coffin of the Bush dictarorship. With the American forces cut off from supply and surrounded, they'd be pretty screwed. Though they might be able to fight their way back to the coast. Good luck trying to reenforce them by sea with Iranian silkworms ready to sink them.

They would get cut to shreds. The airforce would love it, picking out nice big moving targets and obliterating them.

	29-03-2003 17:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel "They're evil, so let's cut them some slack"?

No, more like - you claim to be good so we will hold you to it.

	29-03-2003 17:32									#65
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Ahh, so if we went all "We're evil", noone will have a problem with us.

Great!

	29-03-2003 17:53									#66
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No it's just that we expect more from a democracy.

Just as you would expect better behaviour from a 20 year old than you would from a 2 year old, the west expects better behaviour from a government that is elected than from a dictatorship.

This does not condone or belittle anything that dictatorships do - but if an elected government does them (like Geneva Convention violations or explusion of ethnic groups from areas) then the people of that nation cannot excuse themselves by saying that it's only the actions of an unelected minority.

	29-03-2003 18:17									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Define "all their might?" - suicide battalions charging up the al Faw peninsula? I don't think we really give a **** what they do in the Zagros mountains, it's not key to our area of operations.

That´s an interesting point - would the US be mentally able to go through such a war, when the Iranians use "human waves" on a larger scale?

I mean, this article http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm says that during the Iran-Iraq war they used lots volunteers to conduct such attacks:

Quote from there:

"Ranging in age from only nine to more than fifty, these eager but relatively untrained soldiers swept over minefields and fortifications to clear safe paths for the tanks."

Even when the war is started by the Iranians, and not from the US side, wouldn´t such "human wave" attacks end up in a big slaughter of thousands of those people? I´m not talking about if this is justified (if they attack, then they should expect to take fire), but about the consequences on the morale of US troops and US citizens at home, especially when such things are widely covered in international media.

	29-03-2003 18:28									#68
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quote: No it's just that we expect more from a democracy. Just as you would expect better behaviour from a 20 year old than you would from a 2 year old, the west expects better behaviour from a government that is elected than from a dictatorship.

That's a poor comparison. A child is forgiven for his actions because he doesn't know their full effect. This is not the same with a government.

quote: This does not condone or belittle anything that dictatorships do - but if an elected government does them (like Geneva Convention violations or explusion of ethnic groups from areas) then the people of that nation cannot excuse themselves by saying that it's only the actions of an unelected minority.

So, why haven't there been any UN resolutions against the GOVERNMENTS? why haven't there been any demonstrations against them?

actually, the case is quite the same with other democracies as well. When the Russian troops are using heavy aritillery in civilian areas, no one is enraged, noone goes to a demonstration.

The only reason to call an action wrong, is because it will create suffering. The actions of the Israeli government pale in comparison to actions taken by others in the region. However, some "intellectuals" prefer to call Israel the rogue state, and legitimize it's destruction.

Israel is being singled out. Why? I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone of racism. Maybe they're just stupid.

	29-03-2003 18:39									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Israel is being singled out. Why? I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone of racism. Maybe they're just stupid.

Perhaps its just a 'hate America' extension, and naturally higher profile in international media.

	29-03-2003 18:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's a poor comparison. A child is forgiven for his actions because he doesn't know their full effect. This is not the same with a government.

Actually I think it's a rather good analogy - the people of a non-democratic nation can be forgiven for the actions of their despotic rulers because they have no say in them.
That cannot be said of democratic nations.

quote: Originally posted by Azazel actually, the case is quite the same with other democracies as well. When the Russian troops are using heavy aritillery in civilian areas, no one is enraged, noone goes to a demonstration.

Obviously you are getting a biased view of the news - there have been plenty of demonstrations in europe against Chechnya.

But then again I'm sure that 'europe is against us and anti-semetic' gets better ratings in Israel than 'europe also protests the plight of the chechens'.


The only reason to call an action wrong, is because it will create suffering. The actions of the Israeli government pale in comparison to actions taken by others in the region. However, some "intellectuals" prefer to call Israel the rogue state, and legitimize it's destruction.

Israel is being singled out. Why? I don't know. I don't want to accuse anyone of racism. Maybe they're just stupid. [/QUOTE]

Israel is not being singled out - whay have you ignored the
people protesting against the treatment of downtrodden chechens, Zimbabwians, Burmese, North Koreans etc.

Methinks you are suffering from political myopia.

	29-03-2003 18:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by el freako No it's just that we expect more from a democracy. Just as you would expect better behaviour from a 20 year old than you would from a 2 year old, the west expects better behaviour from a government that is elected than from a dictatorship. This does not condone or belittle anything that dictatorships do - but if an elected government does them (like Geneva Convention violations or explusion of ethnic groups from areas) then the people of that nation cannot excuse themselves by saying that it's only the actions of an unelected minority.

I agree that we should expect more from a democracy, but there are several important limitations to this excersize, not the least of which is the temper of the majority in the democracy in question. Even more important is the situation that the democracy enjoys geopolitically, demographically, economically etc. The United States dropped atomic bombs on the Japanese in World War Two during a war where such a civilian toll was not remarkable except for the means in which it was achieved. Every major combatant in that conflict managed to kill civilians in gigantic numbers, and within that sort of environment democracies can be ruthless if they perceive a need.

Israel is in a constant state of low level warfare with a threat of major warfare made good in three conflicts that might have spelled the end of that state had they gone the other way. They occupy a fairly unique position geopolitically, and it's important to keep that in mind when trying to understand them (not that you aren't doing so).

	29-03-2003 19:56									#72
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Actually I think it's a rather good analogy - the people of a non-democratic nation can be forgiven for the actions of their despotic rulers because they have no say in them. That cannot be said of democratic nations.

I am talking about about the GOVERNMENTS. why is it natural to expect more from a democratic GOVERNMENT than from a a dictatrial one. I am not talking about the people of Syria, for example. (though I am sure they don't mind it too much). It's obvious why should we have the people of a democratic nation more accountable.

quote: Obviously you are getting a biased view of the news - there have been plenty of demonstrations in europe against Chechnya.

Actually, we have european programming here, we're not detached from the outside world.

quote: But then again I'm sure that 'europe is against us and anti-semetic' gets better ratings in Israel than 'europe also protests the plight of the chechens'.

No, actually, the leading tone in the press is either "The general european public lives in a bubble, and doesn't know what's going on, and their politicians are a bunch of hypocrites", or: "Europeans are right, we're wrong".

quote: Israel is not being singled out - whay have you ignored the people protesting against the treatment of downtrodden chechens, Zimbabwians, Burmese, North Koreans etc. Methinks you are suffering from political myopia.

Right, I remember seeing "free Zimbabwe" in all the "anti-war" demostrations. .

Why are there palestinian flags in all the "anti-war" demonstrations? We've got nothing to do with this war, except having a slim chance of being on the recieving end of things.

	29-03-2003 20:02									#73
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Because the Jews are secretly behind everything, of course!

	29-03-2003 20:08									#74
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After seeing people like Comrade Tribune, I think this is certainly true for a part of the people.

	29-03-2003 20:09									#75
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Because the Jews are secretly behind everything, of course!

Shhhhhh!

	29-03-2003 20:30									#76
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Syria can pretty much thumb its nose at Rummy and does whatever it damn well pleases.

	29-03-2003 20:36									#77
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Azazel, then you just have to tone more to the news, there have been lots of demonstrations against the war in Chechnya, and smaller demonstrations go on all the time.... I think that area is full of war crimes and sorrow.. it's a sad place. I'm not saying Russians are doing the war crimes, I'm saying both sides are doing them, and LOTS of them. All the time. I've seen few documents where they follow the troops and what happens.. it's sick. Everyones morale is so low, they don't give a ****, it's just basically getting back to each other with more disgusting crimes that upsets the other one. It's truly disgusting war, way more disgusting than let's say the US vs. Iraq. To every anti-war peeps out there, go out and demonstrate to stop that war. It's far more worse.

	29-03-2003 20:40									#78
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But that war is complicated.. to me, there are no good guys in that war. I'd like to see demonstrations against that, and people going there to stop the war. It does nothing good, only bad to both sides. There definitely are no winners there and it doesn't seem like it would stop in the next few years.

	29-03-2003 20:57									#79
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I didn't say that Russia are the bad guys. But Israel gets unproportionately more flak than any other country. with the exception of the US, these days.

	29-03-2003 21:37									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I didn't say that Russia are the bad guys. But Israel gets unproportionately more flak than any other country. with the exception of the US, these days.

You don't think these criticisms, or at least a large part of it, is justified?

	29-03-2003 21:41									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Syria can pretty much thumb its nose at Rummy and does whatever it damn well pleases.

Rumsfeld to Syria: "Make my day."

	29-03-2003 21:51									#82
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quote: You don't think these criticisms, or at least a large part of it, is justified?

Some of them are, some of them are not.

This is not the issue. the issue is that Israel is being singled out.

	29-03-2003 21:51									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Rumsfeld to Syria: "Make my day."

What's he going to do? Fart in their general direction?

	29-03-2003 21:54									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Rumsfeld to Syria: "Make my day."

Right, and prove the Islamic terrorists right that we're at war with all of Islam.

	29-03-2003 21:57									#85
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Some of my best friends are Muslims.

	29-03-2003 22:01									#86
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Some of my best friends are my best friends. Not all of them, though.

	29-03-2003 22:08									#87
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Actually, I have no close muslim friends. I just love that saying. It's so funny.

	29-03-2003 23:03									#88
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What I think Rumsfeld will do is declare the Syrians combatants that may be fired upon if they are caught in Iraq. This is what he said about the Iranians.

	29-03-2003 23:12									#89
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Well, if Israel gets a disporportionate amount of blame, it also gets a disporportionate amount of attention. Far more people have died in sri Lanka from suicide attacks (the Tamil tigers may still hold the title of the organization to conduct the most suicide attacks) than in Israel, and the number of conflicts that have killed vastly more people than the ME conflict are very numerous. Israel is like a celebrity: in the spotlight, both in its own choosing amd made a "cause celebre" by outsiders form all sides. Like any celebrity, far more scrutiny will befall Israel than say Sri Lanka, The Central African Republic (anyone hear of the recent coup?) or the ongoing wars in Central Africa.

The, of course, thee is the matter of Israel birth: Israel begun like few, if any, other states have. This singular birth and sigular mission statement(at least for modern states), plus its location all conspire to draw plenty of attention and thus invective form all sides.

But there is also a slight difference between the relation between Israelis and Palestinians. Take chechnia. chechens and russians may agree they are different peoples but chechnia continues to be considered part of Russia. whereas the Arab regims abbuse their own people, Israel is abusing someone who is not "their own people" and has never been though as being so. Unlike in the rest of the ME, this can't be viewed as simply an issue more dmeocracy and liberalism and free trade will fix, since it is not an "internal" matter. That difference does matter, and it does call for a different frame of reference. In many cases there is a double standard, but in other, it is a different standard, and for some reason.

	29-03-2003 23:23									#90
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GePap, Russia is not abusing the Chechians and Israel is not abusing the Palestinians. The Chechians attacked Russia. Ditto the Palestinians with Israel.

The Russians have been accused of using excessive force. However, they appeared to do so to save Russian lives.

In contrast, Israel appears to go way, way out of its way to protect Palestinian lives at the risk of its own people. And still it recieves disproportionate criticism when instead they should be praised for their restraint.

The people who criticize Israel have an agenda.