31-03-2003 00:00									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When confronted by multiple evils, the US chooses the one that best represents America's immeidate interests.

That would be the lesser evil to us.

	31-03-2003 00:07									#153
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That would be the lesser evil to us.

I knew I should have said something about that.

	31-03-2003 00:22									#154
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [Q] [SIZE=1] Not from the begining. Hussein helped overthrow General Abdul Karim Kassem, who had pulled Iraq out of the Bagdad Pact (America's alliance in the ME), threatened to invade Kuwait when Britain relinquished its control in 1960, and had allowed Communists in the government. While Hussein was in Cairo, after a failed assassination attempt against Kassem, he became aquainted with the CIA, who gave him money. When the Ba'ath overthrew Kassem in 1963, the CIA gave Hussein a list of communists, whom were then murdered by Hussein and his people.

If he were the darling of the CIA, then why would Soviets support him? Your theory is interesting, but contradictory.

	31-03-2003 00:31									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless If he were the darling of the CIA, then why would Soviets support him? Your theory is interesting, but contradictory.

Why did Noreiga and bin Laden turn against us? They were both helped and funded by the CIA? You think it's impossible for our allies one day to be our enemies the next?

However, to directly answer your question, what major event in the ME happened between 1963, when Hussein was first in power (not at the top) and 1969, when the Baathists returned to power? I'll give you a hint, it happened in six days in 1967.

Anyway, my "theory" isn't a theory. It's what actually happened. There's no interpretation of events needed. Hussein was a regular visitor to the American embassy in Cairo until he returned to Iraq. The CIA did give him money and a list of people who turned up dead.

This catapulted Hussein into the leadership of the Ba'athist party, and when they returned to power, Hussein was made cheif of internal security. Within a year or two he was the real power in Iraq, only openly assuming the presidency in 1979. Had the CIA not helped him prior to 1963, we may not have had to deal with him today.

	31-03-2003 00:35									#156
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I knew I should have said something about that.

I love making posts that can be taken in more than one way.

	31-03-2003 00:40									#157
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why did Noreiga and bin Laden turn against us? They were both helped and funded by the CIA? You think it's impossible for our allies one day to be our enemies the next? However, to directly answer your question, what major event in the ME happened between 1963, when Hussein was first in power (not at the top) and 1969, when the Baathists returned to power? I'll give you a hint, it happened in six days in 1967. Anyway, my "theory" isn't a theory. It's what actually happened. There's no interpretation of events needed. Hussein was a regular visitor to the American embassy in Cairo until he returned to Iraq. The CIA did give him money and a list of people who turned up dead. This catapulted Hussein into the leadership of the Ba'athist party, and when they returned to power, Hussein was made cheif of internal security. Within a year or two he was the real power in Iraq, only openly assuming the presidency in 1979. Had the CIA not helped him prior to 1963, we may not have had to deal with him today.

Stop circumventing my question and continuing promoting your theory. And where did your get your evidence? 60 Greatest Conpiracies?

	31-03-2003 02:43									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I thought we've established earlier in that other thread that Israel did NOT want that war.

Whether israel wanted the war to come or not does not change whether, once the war begun and Israel saw how much it could gain, it decided to go for broke instead of being cautious. The US wanted a ceasefire early on, a ceasefire that might have gone into place before Israel secured the Golan and the West Bank fully.Obviously, it would be in Israeli interest to make sure that whenever the ceasefire came, thy would be in the most adventageous position.

	31-03-2003 02:46									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Stop circumventing my question and continuing promoting your theory. And where did your get your evidence? 60 Greatest Conpiracies?

I answered your question.

Frankly, if you can't figure out the answer given the information I provided you, you're hopeless. I'm not going to hold your hand.

	31-03-2003 02:51									#160
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Noriega didn;t turn against us..we turned against him. In the early 1980's he was completely willing to let the US use Panama as a conduit for aid to the Contras, and as long as aid to the Contras was the most important thing in Central America, we were fine with Noriega. But of course, the Contras and their buddies were drug dealers and Noriega became more involved in the Drug trade. By the time Reagan is out, the Contras are a loosing issue (even a criminal one for various people) and the "War on Drugs" becomes the great evil of our times. Noriega thus is no longer useful to the US in Nicaragua, and is now mixed up in the new great enemy of the US, the international Drug trade.

	31-03-2003 03:13									#161
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I am amazed by the sheer stupidity Rumsfeld displays every time he opens his mouth. While I understand the US will sanction Syria for its cooperation with Iraq in this war, I think it is utterly absurd to do it publically.
The terrible PR impact that Rumsfeld creates will slowly alienate all those who are neutral/somehow hostile to his splendid little war, and turn them to real hostility. He alienated France and Germany, and much of these countries' population with his "witty" comments, and has now started alienating the Muslims.
Keep up the good work, Rummy

	31-03-2003 03:14									#162
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It was kinda mutual. Noriega began making those anti-American speaches at almost the same time that we began to say he was a drug dealer. The main reason we turned against him, however, is that he refused to allows the Contras to base in Nicaragua (why they needed to be there, God and the Reagan administration only know). He was perfectly willing to allow Panama to be a conduit, but he wasn't too keen on having a rebel army based on his soil.

	31-03-2003 06:25									#163
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 can i get a list of succesful american set up "democracies" vs. unsuccesful "democracies". The biggest problem i find with the whole american line of spreading american values is that sometimes the result is only self serving to the US rather than being beneficial to the people.

Like Germany and Japan?

What are you talking about? What democracies have we set up?

	31-03-2003 06:27									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am amazed by the sheer stupidity Rumsfeld displays every time he opens his mouth. While I understand the US will sanction Syria for its cooperation with Iraq in this war, I think it is utterly absurd to do it publically. The terrible PR impact that Rumsfeld creates will slowly alienate all those who are neutral/somehow hostile to his splendid little war, and turn them to real hostility. He alienated France and Germany, and much of these countries' population with his "witty" comments, and has now started alienating the Muslims. Keep up the good work, Rummy

Who is alienated that was not "alienated" before. I think you are being disengenuous.

	31-03-2003 06:57									#165
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Many Germans seem to have badly taken being compared with Lybia. The Germans' goodwill towards the US was huge a short time ago, and seems to have decreased at huge speed. Also, most of the damage done to the French American relationship could have been avoided if Rummy hadn't insulted France with his old Europe crap (I'm the first to admit France should have behaved much better too).

Before the diplomatic barking -that I admit France and Germany have begun- the opposition to war wasn't as clear. In fact, Chirac had warned his troops and his diplomats very shortly before it that they should "be ready for anything" (i.e taking part in the war). Hadn't Rummy opened his mouth, and had he let diplomats do their jobs, the whole UN charade could have been avoided yet. Well, if Chirac hadn't opened his mouth too.

Currently, Syria has shown a 'very cautious' neutrality, to say the least (they are against the US, but didn't enter clear hostility yet). If Rummy openly threatens it, you can be sure his speeches will serve as propaganda-fodder against America. It will also make the diplomatic relations between US and Syria much more awkward. Same with Iran, and same with Jordan if Jordan cooperates less than Rummy needs due.

Edit : In short, Rummy has the skill to turn a "somehow against" country or population into a "completely against" country or population.

	31-03-2003 07:02									#166
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I think those honors belonged to Schroeder and Chirac before Rumsfeld ever said anything.

	31-03-2003 08:22									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Like Germany and Japan? What are you talking about? What democracies have we set up?

no, im talking about countries that arent predisposed to democracy or republics...

	31-03-2003 09:24									#168
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I will pitch in my two cents here by argueing that a certain amount of assistance is likely coming from all across the Arab world.The Syrian cadres were obviouse about thier diliveries and rebutted that the US/UK invasion was unjustified and illegal in the eyes of the UN which it is a member. Iraq has the sympathy of it's brothers so to speak and while they may believe that we are there to liberate the Oil ! they doubt that US/UK interest have anything in common with their interest which first resides in the autonomy to be a soveriegn entity not a American puppet state,or one of many that will exist in the region.I see the evolution of a broader problem taking form daily and cite events in Afgan w/ Pak assistance,Clearly...a protracted war is going into political phase and if succesful then recruited cadres have a growing rear area to operate in.The milllitary phase of this will last for some time after the offensive is complete and we will have to change our tactics in order to prevail in that struggle.

	31-03-2003 20:10									#169
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Azazel,

IIRC, the Chinese turned to Israel after they couldn't get the AWAC planes from the US. Eventually they got Russian ones.

	31-03-2003 21:13									#170
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 no, im talking about countries that arent predisposed to democracy or republics...

So by your definition, any country that the US left that stayed a republic doesn't count because they were somehow "predisposed" to be one. I see.

Perhaps you were refering to Germany's and Japan's long history with democracy.

	31-03-2003 21:58									#171
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Germany and Japan had both had actual working important democratically eelcted governments before the ones that took them to war came into power. Germans knew how to vote and how to abide by the results when the US took over.

Iraq, on the other hand, has never, in its entire history, had a single cohesive democratic government.

	31-03-2003 22:53									#172
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quote: Azazel, IIRC, the Chinese turned to Israel after they couldn't get the AWAC planes from the US. Eventually they got Russian ones

The Chinese turned to the US?

I was talking about the Indians.

	01-04-2003 00:19									#173
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Germany and Japan had both had actual working important democratically eelcted governments before the ones that took them to war came into power. Germans knew how to vote and how to abide by the results when the US took over. Iraq, on the other hand, has never, in its entire history, had a single cohesive democratic government.

GePap, true. But the very same thing could be said of Russia. But it made a seemingly successful transition to democracy.

I hardly believe that people of Iraq are so "undereducated," and "tribal" as to be incapable of democracy. This is almost like saying that only certain people on earth are entitled to human rights. This is ridiculous.

The real problem I see in Iraq and, indeed, throughout the world of Islam is the rising influence of the clerics who are demanding that they have a larger role in the government. This trend largely began after the fall the Shah of Iran and the rise of Khomeini.

I believe that in the postwar Iraq that we need to ban two parties from political power in order to give democracy chance: the first is the Ba'atist party. The second will be Islamic fundamentalist parties that call for giving the clerics real political power, ala Iran.

The problem I see in any UN control of Iraq is that they just may permit these parties to operate.

	01-04-2003 00:55									#174
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quote: But it made a seemingly successful transition to democracy.

depends on how do you define success.

	01-04-2003 00:55									#175
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There was a joke in the 90s "What’s free-market Russia’s greatest achievement? It did in a decade what the Soviets couldn’t do in 70 years--it made communism look good".

	01-04-2003 02:55									#177
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I think it was a mistake to have used megaphone diplomacy on this, It just means that now we have both the Iranians and Syrians on Al Jazeera spouting more anti-american rubish, which could have been avoided.

Iran is not in a position to invade Iraq, to do so would be to invite retaliation, and all its nuclear research would be destroyed (even if they won Iraq) .. better to let the Americans have their bone, and for Iran to get its bomb (in their eyes).

Syria shouts a lot, and makes a noise, but the reality of it is it would not be able to take Iraq, and I can assure you, Turkey would not sit there, and let them take the oil fields in Kurdistan .. no chance .. they prefer the Iraqi authorities to control it.

So in my mind, this is all bluff, and it should have been done via the backdoor ..

	01-04-2003 03:44									#178
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy I think it was a mistake to have used megaphone diplomacy on this, It just means that now we have both the Iranians and Syrians on Al Jazeera spouting more anti-american rubish, which could have been avoided. Iran is not in a position to invade Iraq, to do so would be to invite retaliation, and all its nuclear research would be destroyed (even if they won Iraq) .. better to let the Americans have their bone, and for Iran to get its bomb (in their eyes). Syria shouts a lot, and makes a noise, but the reality of it is it would not be able to take Iraq, and I can assure you, Turkey would not sit there, and let them take the oil fields in Kurdistan .. no chance .. they prefer the Iraqi authorities to control it. So in my mind, this is all bluff, and it should have been done via the backdoor ..

Sorry, Syria started this by shipping night vision goggles to the Saddam regime. Had they stayed out of the conflict, quiet diplomacy on terrorism would have been the order of the day. But, instead, they deliberately chose the path of confrontation. This can only escallate unless Syria backs off.

	01-04-2003 03:49									#179
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Bah...how would the US "escalate?" honestly? Attack Syria at this point? That would end this coolition of the willing right quick. How much of our power isbased in arab regimes? Do you think they would see the attack of another arab state ina good light?

As for Iran..why can;t Iranioan backed anti-Saddam forces fight to get rid of him? we are there to libeate Iraq, yet we don;t want the Iraqis to do anyting by themselves, unless the US or Uk already are at the gates.. some message of coolition support for Iraqi political change..don;t do ahything on your own unless we think it beneficial for our forces at this moment. Some Liberation force.

	01-04-2003 04:22									#180
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Powell already escallated last night - warning Syria to stop supporting terrorism or else. Syria responded that it has chosen to support the Iraqi people - against whom are committed so many crimes against humanity, presumably by the forces of liberation.

I think the next step is closing the border between Syrian and Iraq.