30-03-2003 22:25									#121
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can i get a list of succesful american set up "democracies" vs. unsuccesful "democracies".

The biggest problem i find with the whole american line of spreading american values is that sometimes the result is only self serving to the US rather than being beneficial to the people.

	30-03-2003 22:26									#122
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 so why is america going after problems it didnt create

Because these disfunctional societies have created terrorists and never do wells that have destablized the whole region and endangered our own country.

	30-03-2003 22:28									#123
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and democracy will cure them of ill will towards america and on a larger note israel?

	30-03-2003 22:31									#124
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actually, the problem is that america does not spread it's core values. I could live with that. But America very rarely adopted countries that actually have a similar way of life, Israel is a very rare example, and even that was done full around the beginning of the 70s.

The Soviet Union was did meliorate people's lifes in many of the 3rd world countries it influenced. The Arab countries are an exception to the rule.

	30-03-2003 22:35									#125
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thats the biggest problem i have is that the government of the US claims one thing which is exporting our values to cure the world of its problems but turns around and just uses other nations for sole benefit of itself consequences be damned.

	30-03-2003 22:40									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Shah was returned to power but he's been gone for darn near 25 years. To continue to blame the region's self made problems on the U.S. for restoring the Shah to power a third of a century ago is total B.S..

Really?

Iraq: the US helped Saddam to power and propped him up during the Iran-Iraq War.

Iran: if the US didn't put Shah back in, there wouldn't be a fundamentalist Islamic government.

Israel: nothing needed to be said here

Lebanon: If it weren't for US propping up Israel, Lebanon wouldn't be all messed up.

Saudi Arabia: the US is definitely propping up the House of Saud here.

Should I go on?

	30-03-2003 22:45									#127
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The US propping Saddam to power is very very vague. He wasn't immediately the leader, you know.

Israel:

	30-03-2003 22:48									#128
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azazel, please, we are israels *****. you can just pimp us for whatever the hell youwant.

	30-03-2003 22:49									#129
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 can i get a list of succesful american set up "democracies" vs. unsuccesful "democracies". The biggest problem i find with the whole american line of spreading american values is that sometimes the result is only self serving to the US rather than being beneficial to the people.

Admitably it took a while for many of these to become full fledged democracies but that had alot to do with cold war. Japan, West Germany, Austria (Brtain & US insisted on free elections but the Soviets insisted on them being non aligned), Korea (better late then never), Taiwan (ditto), Italy, large numbers of Latin American states (sure the U.S. meddled but they did help more then they hurt), the U.S. embargo was instrumental in ended South African Apartide, the Phillipines (intermitent dictatorships but still the U.S. kept nugging them back towards democracy), and I'm sure there is more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

	30-03-2003 22:52									#130
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WW2 countries are valid yet the shah isnt as evidence of american success and failures? and youre basis for the shah being invaid was TIME?

	30-03-2003 23:07									#131
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Just from the other night: America wants us to cancel the sale of an Israeli early warning system to India, just so that the US defence contractors would get the billion dollar deal. A similar deal was torpedoed with the PRC. Understandable? only in a puppeteer-lackey relationship.

that ~2.5-3Bil$ USD that you give us is just money to support your own defense contractors, and was generally a standard procedure in cold war politics.
Civilian aid: not since we became a 1st world country, beginning of the 90s.

In the 60s, we had to wait for a couple of weeks, being besieged, and cut of our oil supplies, so that you wouldn't be seen as too much of an agressor, so you could continue to carpet-bomb Vietnam.

Pollard? Very grave. But it's not like you haven't spied on us in relations of signal intelligence. Of course, you're allowed to do that, because you're a superpower. Constant flying of spy planes over Israel, etc. etc.

The "Liberty"? oh right, the ship that the evil ZOG bombed because it hates america/freedom/rednecks/whatever. I've yet to see a good reason for Israel to target a US ship, so it probably was an error.


Errors happen: A couple of days ago, two Israeli journalists, together with their Portugese colleagues were incarcerated, beaten and humiliated by US soldiers, that thought they were spies, despite continuously claiming to be Israeli, and Portugese, countries very close to the US. well, tough, they were released after a couple of days, after a small apology.

That is, of course, unless another very strong theory comes up, and your CIA/NSA/KFC boys on board were up to something real crass, like they're used to in N more other countries.

We're your lackeys. Maybe the pro-Israeli lobbie makes it so that you yank ( no pun intended ) our chain less, but you still continue doing it.

I won't even go back into the 50s, when the US marines threatened to take the same city I live in now, via an amphibious landing.

	30-03-2003 23:09									#132
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Latin America:

quote: sure the U.S. meddled but they did help more then they hurt

You're going to have to substanciate your claims.

	30-03-2003 23:11									#133
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its a symbiotic relationship with you gaining more from it than us.

	30-03-2003 23:13									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Admitably it took a while for many of these to become full fledged democracies but that had alot to do with cold war. Japan, West Germany, Austria (Brtain & US insisted on free elections but the Soviets insisted on them being non aligned)

Japan and Germany had long democratic traditions before WWII. The Mejii Restoration and the German Empire had relatively important parliaments and elections before both succumbed to dictatorship. The US get's no credit there. That's like saying we helped establish a working democracy in France. Italy was also democratic before Mussolini, a constitutional monarchy with a powerful parliament.

quote: Korea (better late then never), Taiwan (ditto),

No thanks to the U.S. Democracy there was forced upon those government by the people against the US backed dicatatorships.

quote: large numbers of Latin American states (sure the U.S. meddled but they did help more then they hurt),

See comments about Korea and Taiwan. It's actually worse in Latin America's case, because in L.A., democracies were overthrown to establish decades of the most viscious dicatorships this hemisphere had ever seen. Even today those countries are not free from the effects. Argentina is a basketcase, Chile's murderers still walk the streets, and in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, the military still exerts fear among the new civilian governments. In Nicaragua, one of the mmost democratic and populist governments was destroyed and replaced with a corrupt government which has let the country slide back into poverty and squalor.

quote: the U.S. embargo was instrumental in ended South African Apartide,

Our "embargo" was pitiful. It was the American people's boycoot of companies doing business with South Africa in addition to the boycotts of people around the globe that finally forced South Africa's hand.

quote: the Phillipines (intermitent dictatorships but still the U.S. kept nugging them back towards democracy),

That's a joke, right? The US backed Marcos from day one. It wasn't until it became clear that Marcos was going to fall no matter what that the US told him it was time to go and gave him the means to escape. The alternative might have been a massacre followed by massive civil war. That's like saying the US was nudging the Shah towards democracy.

The US record toward democracy has been abysmal. We are one of the world's major enemies of democracy, and not only among the Third World. We screwed with elections in Western Europe, especially in Italy (but not Italy alone). Here at home our democratic rights have been hard won and hard kept. The FBI keeps tabs on or actively disrupts dissidents. Election laws are written so as to keep the government in the hands of the two parties. Democracy is a struggle in America.

	30-03-2003 23:17									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The "Liberty"? oh right, the ship that the evil ZOG bombed because it hates america/freedom/rednecks/whatever. I've yet to see a good reason for Israel to target a US ship, so it probably was an error.

I've yet to see good proof that the attack was an error. The Iraqi attack on the Stark was an error: one missile, one hit. The attack on the Liberty had repeated fly-overs before the attack, and a big-ass US flag flying, not to mention it looks nothing like the ship the Israelis claim they were targetting. Furthermore, the targetting the electronics section of the ship, which a horse carrier wouldn't have had.

	30-03-2003 23:28									#136
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quote: its a symbiotic relationship with you gaining more from it than us.

Ok, let's see.
Till around 64', Israel's relationship with the US government was cold, to say the least, while in 56' the US government was openly HOSTILE towards us. ( yes, we were *******s in 56', but it's not like the US opposed us because they are for freedom or something. )

64', a sale of Hawk SAMs to Israel. big friendship? hardly. more of trying to counterbalance the SU, since Nasser was obviously not for sale. main ally of Israel: France.

67', USA puts Israel in a precariously dangerous strategical situation, dragging it's feet for weeks.

73': USA ships ammunition and weaponary to Israel. USA loves Israel, USA is Israel's "*****"?

- countering the NATO sized forces concentrated around Israel, with direct involvement of SU "advisors", and "specialists", aka, SAM operators, and fighter pilots.

76'- USA allows Syria to enter Lebanon, which is double-edged sword for Israel, since Syria ****s the palestinians doggie-style, yet has now a widened front against Israel, and what's even better, via proxy, so it can keep it's hands clean.

78'- the start of negotiations for peace between Egypt and Israel: Nasser was impossible to turn around for the "reasonable way", but Saddat isn't. USA showers both Israel and Egypt with candy, and gets Egypt (!). "Strike another one for the good guys".
.
.
.
.
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maybe you don't think that the USA doesn't benefit much from that relationship, but your government surely dissagrees.

	30-03-2003 23:33									#137
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quote: I've yet to see good proof that the attack was an error. The Iraqi attack on the Stark was an error: one missile, one hit. The attack on the Liberty had repeated fly-overs before the attack, and a big-ass US flag flying, not to mention it looks nothing like the ship the Israelis claim they were targetting.

Feel free to take reason No. 2. .

I see no reason for Israel to attack a US ship. Could you please get me one?

	30-03-2003 23:34									#138
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thats the problem! weve been down this road before. i disagree with my government's position that israel is a benefit to our diplomacy with the mideast rather than a liability.

the second problem is that you dont think we do **** for you while in fact the reason that arabs dont overrun you or die trying is because we got your back while you offer us your useless clout in dealing with your enemies.

	30-03-2003 23:36									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Could you please get me one?

Reason isn't needed to prove a purposeful act. The evidence stands on its own.

	30-03-2003 23:39									#140
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quote: the second problem is that you dont think we do **** for you while in fact the reason that arabs dont overrun you or die trying is because we got your back while you offer us your useless clout in dealing with your enemies.

don't flatter yourself. we can survive without you. If you were stacked against you, it might've been difficult, but I am sure we can allign ourselves with China, or EU, or Russia. You know, people that hate you.

And of course you do **** for us, nobody says you don't. You do **** for turkey too, like prevent the creation of a Kurdish state. You do **** for people all over the world. And you get lots of other **** back.

	30-03-2003 23:43									#141
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quote: Reason isn't needed to prove a purposeful act. The evidence stands on its own.

How come they always look for intent in those detective shows?

	30-03-2003 23:45									#142
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i know you can take care of yourself...but not everyone is convinced. i would love for nothing more than an indy israel and an indy america. you really think that as soon as we would withdraw every arab nation wouldnt gun for you?

and we only get bad stuff back like antiamericanism and a bunch of sassy israelis

	30-03-2003 23:45									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Iraq: the US helped Saddam to power and propped him up during the Iran-Iraq War.

That's the biggest BS argument the leftists have been spewing about. Baath party is socialist and soviet supported through and through. Saddam was from beginning on the darling of the Soviets. His entire military was built around Soviet equipment and doctrines. His rule was thouroughly designed in the similar way as Stalin's Sovietunion. Later, his reactor was mainly built under French assistance.

America indeed staged a coup in 1958 to rid the fundementalist monarchy, but the coup leader was murdered 5 years by the Baath party. His bullet-ridden corpse was displayed in Bagdhad in plain view.

Get yourself educated on the matter before spewing ignorant non-sense.

	30-03-2003 23:45									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel How come they always look for intent in those detective shows?

What does that have to do with explaining away the repeated recon flights and the ludicrous excuse that it was mistaken for an Egyptian horse carrier of a completely different profile?

	30-03-2003 23:46									#145
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Horse carrier?

ok, lets say that Israel attacked the ship on purpose. what was that purpose?

	30-03-2003 23:51									#146
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To make sure the US would not be monotering exactly what the Israelis were doing at that very point. The US was trying to have a cease fire worked out along with the Soviets. The Israelis did not seem all that interested early on. By keeping the US eys of themselves, they could take a few moves the uS might disapprove on without Washington knowing about it...

	30-03-2003 23:52									#147
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lord merciless, you touched on another problem. when in doubt america supports the lesser evil rather than KEEPING ITS NOSE OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES ****!

	30-03-2003 23:54									#148
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quote: . The Israelis did not seem all that interested early on

I thought we've established earlier in that other thread that Israel did NOT want that war.

	30-03-2003 23:57									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Baath party is socialist and soviet supported through and through.

Actually, they're nationalists who spout some socialist ideology because that stuff plays well for the massses. While Iraq had quite a good deal of socialized services, such as education and health care, the capitalist economy was always in charge.

quote: Saddam was from beginning on the darling of the Soviets.

Not from the begining. Hussein helped overthrow General Abdul Karim Kassem, who had pulled Iraq out of the Bagdad Pact (America's alliance in the ME), threatened to invade Kuwait when Britain relinquished its control in 1960, and had allowed Communists in the government. While Hussein was in Cairo, after a failed assassination attempt against Kassem, he became aquainted with the CIA, who gave him money. When the Ba'ath overthrew Kassem in 1963, the CIA gave Hussein a list of communists, whom were then murdered by Hussein and his people.

quote: America indeed staged a coup in 1958 to rid the fundementalist monarchy, but the coup leader was murdered 5 years by the Baath party.

Wrong. See above.

quote: Get yourself educated on the matter before spewing ignorant non-sense.

When you point a finger, three more are pointing back at you.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/

	30-03-2003 23:58									#150
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 lord merciless, you touched on another problem. when in doubt america supports the lesser evil rather than KEEPING ITS NOSE OUT OF OTHER PEOPLES ****!

That's not true. When confronted by multiple evils, the US chooses the one that best represents America's immeidate interests.